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To treat back pain, look to the brain not the spine

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Re: To treat back pain, look to the brain not the spine

#71

Post by [deleted] »

tcj_phx wrote: post #24
gforge wrote: post #21

Lovely article, as an orthopaedic surgeon I can tell you that most of us know this. Treating chronic pain with surgery is generally a bad idea, I spend a large share of my time explaining this. Some patients are grateful for this, but I think that many go and try to find "a real doctor". An interesting development is that there is generally an increased acceptance for psychiatric diagnoses. More are accepting that ju…

> An interesting development is that there is generally an increased acceptance for psychiatric diagnoses. Psychiatry is the only medical specialty that has a resistance movement and survivors groups. I think psychiatrists do okay with diagnosis, but commonly-used treatments frequently make the patients' condition worse. Ref: Whitaker's Anatomy of an Epidemic > More are accepting that just as the pancreas may stop de…

[deleted]

Re: To treat back pain, look to the brain not the spine

#72

Post by o_____________o »

ransom1538 wrote: post #12
katastic wrote: post #5

I've been living this horror for six years. If I could just magically stop using medicine and not being treated like a drug addict for merely taking prescribed medicine by all walks of society (from cops, to nurses, to neighbors), don't you think I'd have already fucking taken that choice? The majority of people don't want to be on pills. They want to get better. If I'm in too much pain to physically get out of bed,…

Hey man after 3 years I just finally beat back pain - it is possible. In my case it was physical therapy until i understood the routine to strengthen the core and stretching. I also changed how I work: no sitting, ever. Laying or standing. I lost weight (i am 6'1 got down to 165). I took stretching serious, you should be able to touch your toes. You need to drink milk. For depression find a position to work while you…

How is nabumetone better than any other NSAID?

Re: To treat back pain, look to the brain not the spine

#73

Post by KGIII »

chrismealy wrote: post #45
KGIII wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am skeptical. What about those three chapters resolved your physiological ailment?

It sounds impossible but it actually happened - just acknowledging the stress I was under made the pain go away (it's not like you have to solve anything). I think it only took about four days. The crazy thing is it was actually visible. The throbbing swollen veins in my forearms receded. I was receptive to the idea because the pain was the worst the summer my dad was dying in a hospice and I wasn't working at all. T…

I don't have any specific reason to try it personally but I do know that the mind is a very powerful thing.

In hindsight, I don't think I presented my question as accurately as I could. I wasn't skeptical of you, and your story, so much as I am skeptical of the results being broad, repeatable, and not due to something unknown. In other words, I am still a bit skeptical of this being viable for most folks,or even many folks.

You mention that you were receptive to the idea, and that makes some more sense. If I understand correctly, you did this by identifying and reducing your stress?

I don't want to ask medical questions, as I have no right to the answers nor do I wish to pressure you into disclosing things you may wish to keep private. The brain is a very powerful thing (though I remind myself of which specific organ it is that tells me that) and it is great that you found a solution.

I guess, I'm curious if there was more to it than being receptive at a specific time and having access to the book. I'm reminded of similar claims about religion and religious texts? That's not meant as a slight, it's just that I wonder if the mechanism is the same, if it's using the same parts of the brain, and things of that nature.

Alas, I am entirely unqualified to speculate, it's just curiosity on my part. It also makes me curious about myself. I'm in remarkably good health, more so if one considers my age and history. I sometimes attribute that to living a life that is virtually free of stress.

So, I wonder if there is more to it. I know low-stress is linked to certain health benefits, though I'm not sure of the rapidity or physiological mechanisms. I believe I read a study that correlated the placebo effect with a reduction in stress. I'm unable to find it, at the moment.

Either way, thank you for your answer and sorry for the novella reply. If you're curious, my low-stress life is due, in part, to being mindful. It works for me.

Again, thank you. I have some free time later today, I am going to do some reading to satisfy my curiosity. I am a doctor, but not that kind of doctor. It's just intellectual curiosity, though it may answer some of my questions for myself.

Do you have any online resources that you might recommend? I'm going to hit up Google Scholar.

Re: To treat back pain, look to the brain not the spine

#74

Post by tudorw »

melling wrote: post #3

The Mind Body Approach: Cures back pain, rsi... https://www.amazon.com/Healing-Back-Pain-Mind-Body-Connectio... http://www.rsi.deas.harvard.edu/mb_what_is.html

Me too, years of issues with 'Carpal Tunnel', 'RSI', my own research into psychoneuroendocrinology and encountering the Sarno approach changed the way I looked at my situation, sensations from my nerves means I am alive, they are not to be relied on as reliable indicators of 'pain', 'pain' should be reserved for things we can do something about. Unwrapping the psychological foundations as to why I chose to start interpreting these signals as 'pain' is a complex and interesting task that is not 'over', but the progress is meaningful and long lasting. I believe advances in continuous arrays and high resolution fMRI together with a raft of new devices that are looking at change over time will bring a scientific lense to Sarno's work and start to close the loop on the mind body experience we call life :)

Re: To treat back pain, look to the brain not the spine

#75

Post by nnfy »

ianai wrote: post #6
katastic wrote: post #5

I've been living this horror for six years. If I could just magically stop using medicine and not being treated like a drug addict for merely taking prescribed medicine by all walks of society (from cops, to nurses, to neighbors), don't you think I'd have already fucking taken that choice? The majority of people don't want to be on pills. They want to get better. If I'm in too much pain to physically get out of bed,…

As a migraine sufferer I feel the same way. I tell people who don't take my pain seriously to watch me take a round of Botox for them. It's something like 8 syringes in my scalp. I absolutely would not go through that if a single migraine didn't inflict much more pain upon me. I'll never forget having a migraine come back on as I was leaving the ER one night. They had already dosed me up well. All the drugs did thoug…

I also suffer from migraines, although not nearly as severe as yours. I strongly recommend you look into kratom for pain management. I generally take a small dose of two grams alongside 200mg ibuprofen and a 10 hour headache will usually disappear within 30-60 minutes. I won't promise that you'll get the same results, but if you're desperate, kratom is relatively benign, cheap, and helps for all kinds of pain.

Re: To treat back pain, look to the brain not the spine

#76

Post by bambax »

HillaryBriss wrote: post #61
bambax wrote: post #9

Not one mention of The Mindbody Prescription (if only to dismiss it)? If you're suffering from back pain, or carpal tunnel syndrome, or such ailments, read this book, it might change your life! (and if it doesn't it can't harm) https://www.amazon.com/dp/0446675156/

IIRC one of Sarno's central ideas is that, sometimes, when a person is undergoing an intensely painful psychological experience, the brain creates some physical pain in order to distract the person from that, original, intense psychological pain. i.e. the chronic physical pain is manufactured by the brain as a means to cope with (avoid awareness of) another type of pain. so, if the person (somehow) becomes consciousl…

Yes. The other insight is that the physical pain is located somewhere likely, somewhere where things already aren't optimal and where you're ready to accept there's a problem. I found that part really fascinating.

Re: To treat back pain, look to the brain not the spine

#77

Post by tcj_phx »

gforge wrote: post #42
tcj_phx wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> An interesting development is that there is generally an increased acceptance for psychiatric diagnoses. Psychiatry is the only medical specialty that has a resistance movement and survivors groups. I think psychiatrists do okay with diagnosis, but commonly-used treatments frequently make the patients' condition worse. Ref: Whitaker's Anatomy of an Epidemic > More are accepting that just as the pancreas may stop de…

I agree, there are serious issues with many of the drug treatments and psychiatry has some dark history - but so does orthopaedics (e.g. the pseudotumors associated with hip resurfacing). Even if anti-depressants are no more effective than placebo, I still think a knife may be an even worse alternative and I've seen patients spiraling down into an abyss of pain after repeated failed surgeries. My hope is that if we a…

Thanks for responding, and for the links.

> I've seen patients spiraling down into an abyss of pain after repeated failed surgeries.

I think surgery is commonly seen as better than doing nothing. Someone I know has some deterioration from cortisone medications. He just heard that his neck implant didn't fail, now the next joint down is gone. He'd rather not have surgery again, but is rather miserable currently, and some doctors make their money by doing surgery...

Do you have any comments on Inertia in Medicine? Doctors try to stay up to date, but... well, cardiologists seem to resist acknowledging that statins don't actually help many patients, and psychiatrists are very resistant to admitting that antipsychotics prevent their patients from recovering from their psychotic episodes...

What does medicine do well, and how can use of practices and procedures with limited benefit be curtailed?

Re: To treat back pain, look to the brain not the spine

#78

Post by regecks »

A very interesting read. I developed chronic pain after a fairly minor injury (at least, now I can see it was minor) and then proceeded to waste 4 years on diagnosis and physical therapy and exercise that wasn't helping at all. My latest doctor did mention 'central sensitisation', but it wasn't suffuciently contextualised for me to do anything with that information.

I gave notice at my job of 4.5 years for unrelated reasons and had a complete reversal of pain within a couple of weeks.

While it is great to be out of that hell, it is completely terrifying that I wasn't able to recognize what was keeping me in pain.

Re: To treat back pain, look to the brain not the spine

#79

Post by QAPereo »

ianai wrote: post #34
ransom1538 wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hey man after 3 years I just finally beat back pain - it is possible. In my case it was physical therapy until i understood the routine to strengthen the core and stretching. I also changed how I work: no sitting, ever. Laying or standing. I lost weight (i am 6'1 got down to 165). I took stretching serious, you should be able to touch your toes. You need to drink milk. For depression find a position to work while you…

What do you so for core conditioning and strength? Also I'm looking for ways to put together a workstation in the horizontal position

One passive way to work the core, sit on a yoga ball instead of a chair. Just start slow, maybe 30-60 minutes at a time.

Re: To treat back pain, look to the brain not the spine

#80

Post by paulryanrogers »

ransom1538 wrote: post #12
katastic wrote: post #5

I've been living this horror for six years. If I could just magically stop using medicine and not being treated like a drug addict for merely taking prescribed medicine by all walks of society (from cops, to nurses, to neighbors), don't you think I'd have already fucking taken that choice? The majority of people don't want to be on pills. They want to get better. If I'm in too much pain to physically get out of bed,…

Hey man after 3 years I just finally beat back pain - it is possible. In my case it was physical therapy until i understood the routine to strengthen the core and stretching. I also changed how I work: no sitting, ever. Laying or standing. I lost weight (i am 6'1 got down to 165). I took stretching serious, you should be able to touch your toes. You need to drink milk. For depression find a position to work while you…

Glad you found what works for you. Cow milk doesn't work for everyone as some are lactose intolerant.
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