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Why do we keep using Facebook?

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Re: Why do we keep using Facebook?

#61

Post by henrikschroder »

tpeo wrote: post #48
henrikschroder wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Based on the other comments so far, it sounds like HN'ers mostly don't use facebook and don't miss it. Let's just say that the "sour grapes" crowd are much more likely to pile on to stories like this. Facebook provides me and my friends with immense value, I'm a very happy user, and as long as that value is higher than the annoyances of using Facebook, we will keep using it. The reality is that Facebook's DAU numbe…

It's not like having and using Facebook is necessarily unfeasible for people who aren't crazy about it, which makes that a bad metaphor. Having a case of "sour grapes" over Facebook makes as much sense as having a case of "sour grapes" over pie. Just go out and buy some if you want. But what makes it a really bad metaphor is that the likelihood of someone using Facebook or not on a daily basis depends on how much val…

> But that says nothing about the preferences of others.

That was exactly my point. OP claimed that it seemed like people on HN weren't using it based on the comments to this thread so far.

I'm claiming the opposite, that a majority of HN users are also relatively happy Facebook users, but that those users won't comment on threads like this. Because these threads always attracts the contrarians and turn into a pissing contest about who deleted their FB account first.

Re: Why do we keep using Facebook?

#63

Post by kelnos »

jamesrcole wrote: post #36
srge wrote: post #19

It's been 2 years that I have deleted both my FB accounts (one for family and friends, the other for business), my IG account and my Twitter account. All accounts had many years of activity and substantial following. I never looked back and I am very much happier. What made me decide is that I realized that I had become an self inflicted obligation to create content to feed my online personas every days. Basically I…

I've heard other people make the same point, and I don't understand it. Why did you feel obligated to create content? A lot of the time I've used it, I've personally been happy just seeing what other people have posted.

I've slowed down a lot lately in my posts to FB and IG. I think the turning point for me was when I saw a friend at a party (someone I don't see often and don't have much of a one-on-one relationship with), and she told me something to the effect of "I decide where to eat based on the photos you post on IG". I'm sure she was exaggerating, and certainly didn't mean to imply any sort of obligation on my part, but it hit me... why am I posting all this stuff?

I've never had any burning desire to be some sort of "online influencer", so what was I really doing? Either I'm bragging about all the cool places I've been to (which I think would be pretty lame of me), or I'm in effect advertising for the restaurants I visit (which isn't too objectionable, but certainly isn't my job). If I were posting things for artistic or comedic value that I wanted to share, or posting actual photos that illustrated what's going on in my life, I'd feel better about it.

So I post less.

And as for FB, my feed is overloaded with politics and social justice posts. Both of which are important, but it gets to be too much, very quickly. And it's not what I want to use FB for -- I have news aggregators for those sorts of things. I used to have pinned tabs in Firefox open for FB and Twitter, but upon closing them a couple months ago I find I'm much happier. I can still manually navigate to FB when I need to, and I still have the mobile app, but I think I'm starting to find the right level of engagement with FB that makes me happiest and gives me the most utility.

Re: Why do we keep using Facebook?

#64

Post by kelnos »

heroprotagonist wrote: post #41
ljamf wrote: post #22

Full disclosure up front: i work for a company which sells ads based on user behavior. I get that it's creepy, "spying" on users, but really, would you rather have ads from services which know nothing about you? Companies want to buy ads that users are interested in, obviously. If I have a company selling vegan food i would optimally only buy ads shown to people who are already vegan, right? And they probably don't w…

> would you rather have ads from services which know nothing about you? Yes, absolutely. Advertisements are not something I seek out. In fact, I do my best to minimize any exposure to them. If they know about me, they are more effective. I understand that I am not immune to the ability of advertising and marketing to influence behavior. I'd rather start a purchasing decision with zero information than from a biased p…

I don't think that's what the parent is talking about, though.

I'm like you: I have adblocker software installed everywhere I can, and when ads on mobile FB and IG show up, I do my best to immediate click the "dismiss ad"/"this isn't relevant to me" button before I even have a chance to look at it. If I visit a site employing anti-adblocking software to require me to disable my adblocker, I close the tab and never go back. I hate advertising in every form and do my best to avoid it. For me (and you), companies building up ad targeting data for us is useless because we aren't receptive, so it just amounts to some creepy company collecting data on us for no good reason -- or worse, to attempt to find our advertising weak spots and make it through our defenses.

I think the parent is more talking about people who are ok with advertising, and who might actually find it valuable. In that light, I think, rationally, it's better to have targeted ads (assuming the targeting is done well), than untargeted. It might be creepy how the ad companies are able to do their targeting, but the end result should be much better. A vegan isn't going to want to see an ad for a local butcher, and a childless person has no use for ads for baby clothes.

Re: Why do we keep using Facebook?

#65

Post by kelnos »

mbrock wrote: post #39
ljamf wrote: post #22

Full disclosure up front: i work for a company which sells ads based on user behavior. I get that it's creepy, "spying" on users, but really, would you rather have ads from services which know nothing about you? Companies want to buy ads that users are interested in, obviously. If I have a company selling vegan food i would optimally only buy ads shown to people who are already vegan, right? And they probably don't w…

Of course I would rather get irrelevant ads than have irresponsible firms tracking the patterns of my online behavior. That seems like an extremely obvious choice. Ads are not there for my benefits, they are memetic weapons deployed by corporations to nudge my subconscious. I haven't voluntarily clicked on a single ad in my entire life. They are 100% obnoxious, and these days, privacy violating to a staggering degree…

You're in the minority, though. The majority of people don't even have an adblocker installed. The companies that are able to give their services away for "free" wouldn't be able to do so without the majority of people who are at least marginally accepting of their ads.

I'm not trying to say you have an obligation to look at ads (I hate advertising nearly as much as you do), but I do understand and accept why these practices are there, and believe that, for the people that do see ads, targeted ads are more useful than untargeted random noise.

I would happily instead pay monthly for things that are largely ad-supported, if they'd give me that option.

Re: Why do we keep using Facebook?

#66

Post by kelnos »

noncoml wrote: post #2

I haven’t used FB for years, I don’t even have an account, and don’t miss it at all. When I want to connect with my friends I use WhatsApp, for brainless time passing I use Reddit and I use HN for stimulation and discussion.

And that's why FB's acquisitions of Instagram and WhatsApp were so brilliant: Zuck recognizes that he's going to inevitably lose some people from FB, so he's diversified.

Re: Why do we keep using Facebook?

#67

Post by kelnos »

humanrebar wrote: post #55
zw123456 wrote: post #9

I removed my account a few months back (you have to request that, you can't delete it on your own, which I think sucks). I did it because I feel that they betrayed our democracy for profit and I do not want to support an organization like that. And that was the feedback I gave them. I do not miss it one bit.

If you think companies like facebook can manipulate democracy, you have problems with open democracy, at least information-age democracy, not facebook in particular. Undergirding democracy is the idea that citizens are intelligent and trustworthy enough to deal with yellow journalism, propaganda, etc. Or, at least, that is a downside of the least bad approach to governance so far.

> Undergirding democracy is the idea that citizens are intelligent and trustworthy enough to deal with yellow journalism, propaganda, etc.

The Nov 2016 US election, and the investigations into news propagation on sites like FB, is outright proof that citizens are in fact not intelligent enough on average to deal with this.

I'm not trying to shit on people or be flippant, but... it's not looking good. Certainly censoring people or legislating FB into oblivion isn't the answer, but I'm not sure what is. "Educate everyone better" seems like a catch-22 at best, likely destined to fail.

And I don't think this is an example of a company influencing elections. FB was pretty unwitting there. Others found creative, unintended ways to use the platform to do their dirty work.

Re: Why do we keep using Facebook?

#68

Post by kelnos »

Sir_Substance wrote: post #18
newscracker wrote: post #11

It seems like people becoming increasingly physically isolated and not connecting even with neighbors makes online connections valuable. It's pervasive and avoids moving physically. And of course, the network effect of others being on Facebook.

>It seems like people becoming increasingly physically isolated and not connecting even with neighbors makes online connections valuable. This kind of thinking never held much water with me. You don't get to choose your neighbors, the odds that they'll be compatible with you in the way that might lead to meaningful friendships is extremely low. None of my parents friends are former neighbors. Lots of them are former…

Very much agreed. I've lived in the bay area for 13 years, in apartments with at least 20 units in them (usually many more), and I have not known even one of my neighbors. Beyond that, I have a very healthy in-person social life filled with people I've met through other avenues. Even though you'd think it'd be easy to do so, I just don't have much interest in meeting the other people who live in my building.

This isn't universal, of course -- one of my good friends lives in a building with 4 units, and he knows everyone who lives there. Diff'rent strokes, I guess.

I wonder if knowing your neighbors is more of a suburban/rural/family thing? When I was growing up (suburbs of NJ and later MD), we always at least knew the people who lived on our block, even if we weren't close friends with them.

Re: Why do we keep using Facebook?

#69

Post by heroprotagonist »

kthejoker2 wrote: post #60
heroprotagonist wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> would you rather have ads from services which know nothing about you? Yes, absolutely. Advertisements are not something I seek out. In fact, I do my best to minimize any exposure to them. If they know about me, they are more effective. I understand that I am not immune to the ability of advertising and marketing to influence behavior. I'd rather start a purchasing decision with zero information than from a biased p…

Advertising is part of the modern infrastructure because almost every service charges zero dollars for use. So you're asking the wrong question: why won't people pay for social networks?

That's a non-starter. There hasn't been a large social network with an ad-free, analytics-free option you could pay for.

Re: Why do we keep using Facebook?

#70

Post by Sir_Substance »

kelnos wrote: post #68
Sir_Substance wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>It seems like people becoming increasingly physically isolated and not connecting even with neighbors makes online connections valuable. This kind of thinking never held much water with me. You don't get to choose your neighbors, the odds that they'll be compatible with you in the way that might lead to meaningful friendships is extremely low. None of my parents friends are former neighbors. Lots of them are former…

Very much agreed. I've lived in the bay area for 13 years, in apartments with at least 20 units in them (usually many more), and I have not known even one of my neighbors. Beyond that, I have a very healthy in-person social life filled with people I've met through other avenues. Even though you'd think it'd be easy to do so, I just don't have much interest in meeting the other people who live in my building. This isn…

>I wonder if knowing your neighbors is more of a suburban/rural/family thing?

Mutual self-interest brings neighbors together. The further out in the sticks you are and/or the lower income your neighborhood is, the more you get out of a firm working understanding with your neighbors.

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