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Alan Kay is still waiting for his dream to come true

fastcompany.com

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Re: Alan Kay is still waiting for his dream to come true

#21

Post by david927 »

ksec wrote: post #19

This isn't the first time Alan Kay express his view on HTML / CSS and Javascitpt. But what alternative do we have / had?

That's the problem here, actually, but not in the way you think. There are alternatives (Canvas, SVG, etc.) but they're not as good for the standard use case of coming up with something quick that fulfills the business requirement.

And then we need to recognize that that stack is a fucking abomination that should be burned with fire. It should so deeply embarrass us, that we wouldn't want to admit that we use it in polite company.

We need people who are willing to experiment with new ideas and give us something better than HTML/CSS/JS. And we need them to get funding.

Re: Alan Kay is still waiting for his dream to come true

#23

Post by ktRolster »

norswap wrote: post #18

For all the respect and admiration I have for Alan Kay, I think he's often showing a lot of bad faith. His ideal vision is always described in very abstract terms. If he took the care to write it down precisely, what it should look like, I'm sure there would be hundreds eager to build it for him. Of course, part of it is "design principles". But then do some common use cases. When the abstraction meets reality we get…

His ideal vision is always described in very abstract terms. If he took the care to write it down precisely, what it should look like, I'm sure there would be hundreds eager to build it for him.

Look at Squeak. http://squeak.org/ The idea that you should be able to dig in and modify things is very powerful.

Another way to look at it is in terms of discoverability: you are at one level of understanding (using the phone, clicking on things), and it should lead you to a deeper level of understanding (perhaps moving things around, modifying them). At each level, there are hooks inviting you deeper, drawing you in. Ideally you get down low enough to start programming, to actually understanding how assembly and the CPU works, so there is no longer any area of magic.

Re: Alan Kay is still waiting for his dream to come true

#24

Post by johansch »

david927 wrote: post #21
ksec wrote: post #19

This isn't the first time Alan Kay express his view on HTML / CSS and Javascitpt. But what alternative do we have / had?

That's the problem here, actually, but not in the way you think. There are alternatives (Canvas, SVG, etc.) but they're not as good for the standard use case of coming up with something quick that fulfills the business requirement. And then we need to recognize that that stack is a fucking abomination that should be burned with fire. It should so deeply embarrass us, that we wouldn't want to admit that we use it in p…

I have been working with the web since 1997, but almost only on the server-side (back in the the simpler web 1.0 days) and (during the past decade) on the browser UX/network side.

I just recently started looking at actually creating some web content that uses the modern web stack. Holy moly. What a cluster f__k of insanely over/badly-engineered craziness.

Re: Alan Kay is still waiting for his dream to come true

#25

Post by firasd »

johansch wrote: post #20
ksec wrote: post #19

This isn't the first time Alan Kay express his view on HTML / CSS and Javascitpt. But what alternative do we have / had?

It is terrible though. It is worth stating the obvious fact once in a while. This organic design of the web stack with layer upon layer upon layer upon layer can't go on for forever. At some point it will just become too painful and an alternative will emerge.

The web platform has its virtues though. I can still load a webpage made in 1996 and at least read the text if nothing else; we can't say the same of erstwhile competitors like Flash, Silverlight, Java applets...

Re: Alan Kay is still waiting for his dream to come true

#26

Post by ktRolster »

pcl wrote: post #15

It's clear from the interview that Kay thinks mobile computing isn't where it should be. But I haven't studied the DynaBook. Does anyone know exactly what Kay thinks is needed, in order to realize his dream? I found a few such things in the article: - more-discoverable undo - some sort of AI-based virtual assistant - a stylus and holder, and presumably input methods and applications that are better suited for that st…

more-discoverable undo

I think he wanted more discoverable everything, the undo was just used as a particularly bad example on the iPhone.

He wants the world to be more discoverable, to modify our very culture so that learning is easy (an example he gave was with math, so it's not just a small, 'smart' percentage of the population who actually gets it, but everyone absorbs it from a young age).

Re: Alan Kay is still waiting for his dream to come true

#27

Post by johansch »

firasd wrote: post #25
johansch wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is terrible though. It is worth stating the obvious fact once in a while. This organic design of the web stack with layer upon layer upon layer upon layer can't go on for forever. At some point it will just become too painful and an alternative will emerge.

The web platform has its virtues though. I can still load a webpage made in 1996 and at least read the text if nothing else; we can't say the same of erstwhile competitors like Flash, Silverlight, Java applets...

Open standards tend to win/survive...

Re: Alan Kay is still waiting for his dream to come true

#30

Post by TuringTest »

pcl wrote: post #15

It's clear from the interview that Kay thinks mobile computing isn't where it should be. But I haven't studied the DynaBook. Does anyone know exactly what Kay thinks is needed, in order to realize his dream? I found a few such things in the article: - more-discoverable undo - some sort of AI-based virtual assistant - a stylus and holder, and presumably input methods and applications that are better suited for that st…

What's missing in today's software is described by the field of End User Development, the ability for normal people to craft new software artifacts without the need to learn a formal programming language.

For most people, using computers means being force-feed a selection of existing applications; and most applications are pro- consumption, which is favoured by the media companies.

App stores (and the Linux repositories that preceded them) were a significant advance for the public, as they allowed common people top be able to find tools to cover their needs; previous to that, only power users were able to tune the computer to their needs.

However, non-developers still depend on the capabilities put in there by the developers, and can't fine-tune their behaviour.

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