Also, there seems to be a ~7600 USD referral bonus on for the position here: https://ref10.com/
Updated to $12,000 now
Software Engineer, Machine Learning
31–40 of 66 posts
Re: Software Engineer, Machine Learning
#32I routinely work those hours. I love what I do, which is self-directed research in computer algebra. I'm retired, though, so I probably don't count.
90 hours/week = 18 hours/day (assuming 5-day work week). That leaves only 6 hours for other chores, travel and sleep. This is not sustainable. So I'll assume people who can pull off a 90-hour work week work all 7 days of the week which would amount to 13 hours/day. That still leaves sufficient time for a 7-hour sleep and 4 hours of chores and entertainment. Now, if you are your own boss where you decide the scope and…
I'd need to be convinced that they had a really interesting problem, one that would keep me awake at night. I'd also need to be convinced they understand the idea that "anything we can solve by throwing money at the problem isn't a real problem". Real problems can't be solved by money and problems that can be solved by money aren't real.
You'll find at a job that a 70% productive day is outstanding. Time not lost to meetings, travel, etc. is rare. Working from home helps because it extends the work time and minimizes the interruptions. My years working from home were the most productive.
As for the 70 hours thing, I work 7 days a week. Since I have no outside constraints the term 'day' gets a bit blurry; sleep happens when it happens, eating happens between keystrokes, etc. In fact, I'm "on vacation" this week at the Outer Banks but reading a PhD thesis. My wife can't understand why I brought "work" to a beach resort. She works in medicine so this really is "escape time from work" for her.
Interesting work is its own motivation. We seem to have lost that idea somewhere. Her work is not interesting so she needs to escape. Mine is interesting and I consider not working as "lost time".
Andrew has the possibility of "interesting work" but I'm going to bet they screw it up with things like "required sensitivity training", meetings, "required plans and schedules", "interviewing new employees", "friday lunch gatherings", skip-level interviews, open-plan floor office space, investor presentations, morning standups, on-call phone coverage, skype meetings, slack interruptions, agile card games, progress reports, company security protocols, random phone calls, trip reports, trip refund paperwork, employee ratings, changing goals, offsite meetings, time tracking, parking issues, pair programming, etc. All of which are examples of time-sinks I've experienced on the job. I can't spend 3 weeks absorbing a relevant PhD thesis "between meetings". I can't write really difficult programs without huge blocks of uninterrupted time.
Re: Software Engineer, Machine Learning
#33If you don't like the job, DONT APPLY. There is absolutely nothing wrong with seeking people who voluntarily wish to work those hours. It is in fact much better than implicitly expecting long working hours like many jobs while not being upfront about it - that can trap people into a deal they did not fully understand. This is the opposite. It may be unsustainable for the vast majority of people (me included) - so wha…
Of course, I won't apply. I guess that's common sense.
But I think this trend needs to be called out and discussed. I want to have the possibility of working healthy hours like I currently do at my current workplace for many more years to come. But if this trend becomes pervasive in the industry, I would lose this possibility.
Re: Software Engineer, Machine Learning
#34If you don't like the job, DONT APPLY. There is absolutely nothing wrong with seeking people who voluntarily wish to work those hours. It is in fact much better than implicitly expecting long working hours like many jobs while not being upfront about it - that can trap people into a deal they did not fully understand. This is the opposite. It may be unsustainable for the vast majority of people (me included) - so wha…
This is my industry. I don't want to companies to start expecting a minimum of 70 hours of work for 40 hours of pay. Until they start adding "one-and-a-half compensation for overtime" to these job, I will always see this as a thinly veiled attempt to extract free labor from their employees without paying for it. Companies openly engaging in that kind of behavior worries me, and unless you own a business, it should wo…
This isn't a job you take for the pay. You ask for enough money that you no longer care about it (e.g. you just throw money at problems. If your car won't start, call a towtruck and a cab to get to work).
You can't do this kind of work motivated by money. You have to love the idea.
Re: Software Engineer, Machine Learning
#35All modern research/studies tend to demonstrate that, beyond 40 hours, productivity does not rise, and, beyond 50 hours, it actually plunge, with quality dropping, employees driven to burn-out, etc. But still, the stupid mantra from the Silicon Valley is "you have to work 80 hours to be successful" Why are these CEO/CTO unable to comprehend studies and adopting a totally irrational position ? https://www.inc.com/tom-…
the name of the game is leveraging explosive, unsustainable growth into a high rate of return into cheap capital into a big payday for founders
everything else is long-term
Re: Software Engineer, Machine Learning
#36Earlier quoted context omitted.
90 hours/week = 18 hours/day (assuming 5-day work week). That leaves only 6 hours for other chores, travel and sleep. This is not sustainable. So I'll assume people who can pull off a 90-hour work week work all 7 days of the week which would amount to 13 hours/day. That still leaves sufficient time for a 7-hour sleep and 4 hours of chores and entertainment. Now, if you are your own boss where you decide the scope and…
I'd need to be convinced that they had a really interesting problem, one that would keep me awake at night. I'd also need to be convinced they understand the idea that "anything we can solve by throwing money at the problem isn't a real problem". Real problems can't be solved by money and problems that can be solved by money aren't real. You'll find at a job that a 70% productive day is outstanding. Time not lost to…
Andrew Ng mentions in the job posting that they want dirty work as well as design work to be done.
"Since we're an early stage company, you should be flexible in your tasks and do whatever is needed, ranging from dirty work like data cleaning, to high-level work like algorithm design."
Re: Software Engineer, Machine Learning
#37Earlier quoted context omitted.
This is my industry. I don't want to companies to start expecting a minimum of 70 hours of work for 40 hours of pay. Until they start adding "one-and-a-half compensation for overtime" to these job, I will always see this as a thinly veiled attempt to extract free labor from their employees without paying for it. Companies openly engaging in that kind of behavior worries me, and unless you own a business, it should wo…
This isn't a job you take for the pay. You ask for enough money that you no longer care about it (e.g. you just throw money at problems. If your car won't start, call a towtruck and a cab to get to work). You can't do this kind of work motivated by money. You have to love the idea.
So... take advantage of people's passions to extract free labour out of them.
That's so much better...
Or, here's a crazy idea: You could hire two passionate people and allow them to each live a normal, balanced life, thus preventing burnout and reducing the chance of mistakes while increasing overall productivity (since studies show that one person working twice as long is not twice as productive).
Wild idea, right?
Re: Software Engineer, Machine Learning
#38Since the job description includes 70-80 hours I expect that they are paying more. It would be normal to assume a 70/40 or 80/40 pay rate, that is, about twice the normal rate for a leading edge programmer. So, base salary should probably start north of $500,000 per year. And those hours will require working both at work and at home so you should expect a fully funded home-office and half-coverage of your rent. I'm w…
That explains the $12k referral bonus here https://www.ref10.com/
Nowhere near enough.
Re: Software Engineer, Machine Learning
#39Since the job description includes 70-80 hours I expect that they are paying more. It would be normal to assume a 70/40 or 80/40 pay rate, that is, about twice the normal rate for a leading edge programmer. So, base salary should probably start north of $500,000 per year. And those hours will require working both at work and at home so you should expect a fully funded home-office and half-coverage of your rent. I'm w…
Maybe not:
Previous experience with machine learning, such as experience from completing the Coursera Machine Learning and/or deeplearning.ai MOOCs
If that's the experience level, then this is an entry-level job.
Re: Software Engineer, Machine Learning
#40If you don't like the job, DONT APPLY. There is absolutely nothing wrong with seeking people who voluntarily wish to work those hours. It is in fact much better than implicitly expecting long working hours like many jobs while not being upfront about it - that can trap people into a deal they did not fully understand. This is the opposite. It may be unsustainable for the vast majority of people (me included) - so wha…
My guess is this is being called out because it's symptomatic of a toxic valley culture that clearly values workaholism, to the detriment of people's mental and physical health. Couple that with a broader obsession in the US corporate workplace for increased productivity at all costs, and I can see why people would see this as beyond the pale. So, yes, taken as a single point, you're right, simply don't apply. As par…
Working these hours at Google would be stupidity. But startups are different. I've worked for a few. You basically sell your soul to try to make it succeed. If you love the idea the work hours are not the issue. Things go sour when the startup is being sold. Then everyone discovers that only a few people will make money off the effort and you get to watch. It gets toxic quickly.