Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Software Engineer, Machine Learning

deeplearning.ai

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

21–30 of 66 posts

Re: Software Engineer, Machine Learning

#21

Post by saiya-jin »

kloncks wrote: post #9

I genuinely don't understand the criticism. You don't find or enjoy working 70-90 hours healthy? That's your view and you likely shouldn't apply for this position. Even assuming this is crazy, what's wrong with crazy people recruiting similarly minded crazy people? It's most obviously not a fit for anyone who wants to work 40 hours or wants to see their kids or whatever, but for those, there are plenty of other jobs.…

Science doesn't find this amount of work healthy. Many people push themselves, or are pushed by external pressures, and then burnouts, suicides etc happen.

Fair thing is, they are honest about it. Pathetic is, this is upfront expectation for business to perform.

Personally, I believe that if one decides to waste its life on work, however pathetic life choice that is, one should be allowed. Rest of us can point a finger, laugh and get back to living our lives. This ain't something to glorify or to be proud of, quite opposite.

One last thing - most people think along these lines, based on reactions here & his FB.

Re: Software Engineer, Machine Learning

#22

Post by oneneptune »

samoright wrote: post #5
daly wrote: post #4

I routinely work those hours. I love what I do, which is self-directed research in computer algebra. I'm retired, though, so I probably don't count.

90 hours/week = 18 hours/day (assuming 5-day work week). That leaves only 6 hours for other chores, travel and sleep. This is not sustainable. So I'll assume people who can pull off a 90-hour work week work all 7 days of the week which would amount to 13 hours/day. That still leaves sufficient time for a 7-hour sleep and 4 hours of chores and entertainment. Now, if you are your own boss where you decide the scope and…

To provide an anecdote for the effect this has on your life. I worked 70+ hours minimum (106 was my "record") for 5 years and averaged 4 hours and 45 minutes of sleep per night. It was spread out over 6 days a week which made it a little easier.. but it wasn't worth it.

I couldn't keep any intimate relationship, pretty much just dated very casually over that time.

Rarely saw my family.

Saw my friends so infrequently, that I may as well have lived 2,000 miles away. It was a big event any time I saw them which was usually once every 2-3 months.

My blood pressure reached full blown hypertension levels and I needed medication.

It's not a healthy way to live and I've undoubtedly erased years from the end of my life as a result. I don't care how motivated or passionate you are about what you do, this work load isn't sustainable and will forever be a "Dark Ages" era of my own life.

Re: Software Engineer, Machine Learning

#23

Post by sgy »

fs85 wrote: post #20
sgy wrote: post #8

Also, there seems to be a ~7600 USD referral bonus on for the position here: https://ref10.com/

so people are being rewarded for sending their friends to work long hours?

A lot of people voluntarily work for long hours, especially in tech/research and especially if they like what they're working on

Re: Software Engineer, Machine Learning

#24

Post by falcolas »

kloncks wrote: post #9

I genuinely don't understand the criticism. You don't find or enjoy working 70-90 hours healthy? That's your view and you likely shouldn't apply for this position. Even assuming this is crazy, what's wrong with crazy people recruiting similarly minded crazy people? It's most obviously not a fit for anyone who wants to work 40 hours or wants to see their kids or whatever, but for those, there are plenty of other jobs.…

I, personally, criticize it because I consider it to be abuse. The individuals hired for these kinds of conditions are typically underpaid and overworked, and come out of it burnt out and hating their profession.

EA did this, and were successfully sued for it. The consequences for their actions were greater than just being sued, however; an entire generation or two of game developers were burnt out on their passion and moved away from the gaming industry.

Re: Software Engineer, Machine Learning

#25

Post by thecolorblue »

jswensen wrote: post #3

So basically they are discriminating against people who would like to see their children? 90 hours per week == 12.86 hours per day. That means I clock in close to 7AM and clock out at 8PM every day of the week. This excludes any travel time, meals, etc. My wife called the first two years of graduate school her "grad-student widow years". Even now on occasion I put in that much time, but a consistent 70-90 hour work w…

The other option is they are looking for people who are comfortable getting less than 8 hours of sleep a night. This is also not healthy, but can be done.

Re: Software Engineer, Machine Learning

#26

Post by falcolas »

zaptheimpaler wrote: post #7

If you don't like the job, DONT APPLY. There is absolutely nothing wrong with seeking people who voluntarily wish to work those hours. It is in fact much better than implicitly expecting long working hours like many jobs while not being upfront about it - that can trap people into a deal they did not fully understand. This is the opposite. It may be unsustainable for the vast majority of people (me included) - so wha…

Ethical considerations and actual productivity hits aside - unless properly paid, the company is opening itself up for lawsuits. EA was sued for working salaried workers beyond 50 hours a week.

Re: Software Engineer, Machine Learning

#27

Post by zzalpha »

zaptheimpaler wrote: post #7

If you don't like the job, DONT APPLY. There is absolutely nothing wrong with seeking people who voluntarily wish to work those hours. It is in fact much better than implicitly expecting long working hours like many jobs while not being upfront about it - that can trap people into a deal they did not fully understand. This is the opposite. It may be unsustainable for the vast majority of people (me included) - so wha…

My guess is this is being called out because it's symptomatic of a toxic valley culture that clearly values workaholism, to the detriment of people's mental and physical health.

Couple that with a broader obsession in the US corporate workplace for increased productivity at all costs, and I can see why people would see this as beyond the pale.

So, yes, taken as a single point, you're right, simply don't apply. As part of a larger trend in tech workplaces, it's a worrying symptom of a deeper dysfunction.

Re: Software Engineer, Machine Learning

#28

Post by wageslaving »

zaptheimpaler wrote: post #7

If you don't like the job, DONT APPLY. There is absolutely nothing wrong with seeking people who voluntarily wish to work those hours. It is in fact much better than implicitly expecting long working hours like many jobs while not being upfront about it - that can trap people into a deal they did not fully understand. This is the opposite. It may be unsustainable for the vast majority of people (me included) - so wha…

This is my industry. I don't want to companies to start expecting a minimum of 70 hours of work for 40 hours of pay. Until they start adding "one-and-a-half compensation for overtime" to these job, I will always see this as a thinly veiled attempt to extract free labor from their employees without paying for it. Companies openly engaging in that kind of behavior worries me, and unless you own a business, it should worry you too.

Re: Software Engineer, Machine Learning

#29

Post by sgy »

daly wrote: post #6

Since the job description includes 70-80 hours I expect that they are paying more. It would be normal to assume a 70/40 or 80/40 pay rate, that is, about twice the normal rate for a leading edge programmer. So, base salary should probably start north of $500,000 per year. And those hours will require working both at work and at home so you should expect a fully funded home-office and half-coverage of your rent. I'm w…

That explains the $12k referral bonus here https://www.ref10.com/

Re: Software Engineer, Machine Learning

#30

Post by clooless »

monktastic1 wrote: post #15
wageslaving wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Personally, I would expect at least time and a half applied to those last 30-40 hours as well. Which would be 85/40 to 100/40.

Stupid question: what does a pay rate in the form "x/y" mean?

Normal rate is 40 hours/wk. New rate is (e.g.) 80 hrs per week, so the pay should reflect that. 80/40 or 2/1 or 2x the rate.
Post reply on HN