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On React and WordPress

ma.tt

91–100 of 212 posts

Re: On React and WordPress

#91
post #82

The Drupal community struggled a bit with the decision as well (see https://www.drupal.org/node/2645250 ). It seems there are a number of open source communities and enterprise development shops who are just not comfortable with the patent clause. React had a lot of momentum, but it seems alternatives like Vue.js are going to be the long-term winners in terms of being 'the next jQuery' in terms of longevity as a fron…

The next jquery will be probably Polymer (since it is a library). VueJS/Angular are bigger frameworks.

I very much agree with this. Web components are usable in and out of any framework and once browser support will be there I think they'll be huge. Until then, Polymer helps fill in the missing pieces.

Reminds me of jQuery before browser vendors integrated things like selector querying.

Re: On React and WordPress

#92
post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'll bet WordPress get's rewritten in Vue.js I had the same thought. If that's the case, it will be a big boost for Vue.

Vue seems the obvious contender but I doubt completely replacing React with Vue this far into development would only cause a delay of a few weeks. Preact or Inferno seem far more likely, considering they won't require massive rewrites.

"A very large software company that use Inferno in production already had their legal team look into Inferno. It didn't infringe on any patents."

— Dominic Gannaway, creator of infernojs https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14783208

Re: On React and WordPress

#93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree that the risk of running into legal trouble with Facebook is pretty low for many companies. However, that doesn't make it feel any less dirty. It would be nice if the lawyers at Facebook would take a chill pill on this one but that will never happen. It will be interesting to see where OSS projects from Facebook go moving forward given that the noise surrounding their patent clause seems to get louder and lou…

I think preact since they already used react and will only delay them a few weeks preact seems like the more sensible option

I'm unclear on whether Preact solves the issue.

On one hand - it's close that it probably infringes on the any patents that cover React

On the other - it's not infringing patents that scares people - it's the patent clause in the React licence. If you're not using React, you're not accepting this licence.

So Preact seems like it would safe enough - unless you believe that Facebook would one day go on the offensive with React-specific patents. (for the record - this seems unlikely to me)

Re: On React and WordPress

#94
post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How does that protect anyone? Any patents covering React would probably cover Preact.

(IANAL) But you didn't use React so you never accepted that Patents file?

That's not how it works.

The patents file does not take away any rights or impose any obligations.

You already have a license to use the React software, because it comes with a BSD license.

The patents file is an additional grant of rights. Specifically, the right to immunity against Facebook patents related to React, unless you have yourself initiated a patent lawsuit against Facebook.

The Apache License and the Mozilla Public License also contain patent retaliation clauses. Not many people care about this, and not many people even read licenses or think about what they mean, except in the case of React, because it's become a FUD meme.

Here's from the Apache License, v2, clause 3:

"Subject to the terms and conditions of this License, each Contributor hereby grants to You a perpetual, worldwide, non-exclusive, no-charge, royalty-free, irrevocable (except as stated in this section) patent license to make, have made, use, offer to sell, sell, import, and otherwise transfer the Work, where such license applies only to those patent claims licensable by such Contributor that are necessarily infringed by their Contribution(s) alone or by combination of their Contribution(s) with the Work to which such Contribution(s) was submitted. If You institute patent litigation against any entity (including a cross-claim or counterclaim in a lawsuit) alleging that the Work or a Contribution incorporated within the Work constitutes direct or contributory patent infringement, then any patent licenses granted to You under this License for that Work shall terminate as of the date such litigation is filed."

So if you sue over a patent, the Apache patent grant terminates.

Here's from the Mozilla Public License, v2, clause 5.2:

"If You initiate litigation against any entity by asserting a patent infringement claim (excluding declaratory judgment actions, counter-claims, and cross-claims) alleging that a Contributor Version directly or indirectly infringes any patent, then the rights granted to You by any and all Contributors for the Covered Software under Section 2.1 of this License shall terminate."

This is even stronger: if you sue over a patent, the entire license (not just the patent grant) is terminated, so that you would then be violating copyright law by distributing software based on that MPL project.

Nobody ever mentions that patent retaliation clauses are fairly common in open source, and nobody definitely goes into any detail about what they mean and how they differ.

This issue is a textbook case of FUD (fear, uncertainty, doubt).

Re: On React and WordPress

#95
post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My understanding is that you lose access to React if you sue Facebook over any patents at all, not just ones that may be relative to React.

You don't lose access to React. You lose access to any patents in React, but not the copyright. We don't even know of any React patents, so for all we know the entire document does nothing.

From Facebook's FAQ about this issue:

"Does termination of the additional patent grant in the Facebook BSD+Patents license cause the copyright license to also terminate?"

"No."

https://code.facebook.com/pages/850928938376556

Re: On React and WordPress

#96

It's getting hard to recommend React when the company controlling it clearly has threatening licensing ideas. Better use something else open source or just pay a license fee to someone for a clearly licensed commercial framework.

I don't understand this: how are you not strictly better off with the patent grant? This whole fiasco seems to be nothing but FUD. See https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14780979

tl;dr:

    License with no patent grant: Facebook can sue you for infringing patents, 
    even if you are using a clone!
    License with patent grant: Facebook cannot sue you for infringing patents, 
    unless you do it first.

Re: On React and WordPress

#97
post #10

>> rewrite Gutenberg using a different library. It will likely delay Gutenberg at least a few weeks I love this. How many times in my career have I heard "the rewrite will take us ". Good luck with that estimate.

We've migrated reasonably large React projects to Preact using the amazing preact-compat : https://www.npmjs.com/package/preact-compat -- it was really as simple as wiring aliases in the webpack config!

I guess you weren't dependent on Synthetic events then.

Re: On React and WordPress

#98
post #90
post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But Facebook can infringe on your patents if they know you have a heavy dependency on React. They won't sue, just infringe. And you won't be able to sue them with zero losses, you will lose at minimum React.

That sounds like a positive, if the end goal is the elimination the abomination of software patents.

But I only want to eliminate patents that I don't own....

Re: On React and WordPress

#99
post #2

It's too bad that this particular point has become an issue with so many good open source projects. I still think that the risk, even for startups considering acquisition exits, is low (see this great post from a patent/IP attorney [1]), but the fact that it's enough to cause players like the ASF and WordPress to move away from it just means fewer players and less innovation in the ecosystem. IANAL, but I wish the la…

I agree that the risk of running into legal trouble with Facebook is pretty low for many companies. However, that doesn't make it feel any less dirty. It would be nice if the lawyers at Facebook would take a chill pill on this one but that will never happen. It will be interesting to see where OSS projects from Facebook go moving forward given that the noise surrounding their patent clause seems to get louder and lou…

Vue.js... Which is totally guaranteed to not be covered by any possible Facebook patents related to react, right?

Re: On React and WordPress

#100
post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Personally, I have a hard time imagining that any Facebook patents you use with React wouldn't also apply to Preact. Then again, I think this whole patents issue is mostly FUD. The number of companies who have to reasonably consider suing Facebook for patent infringement is small and they know who they are.

According to the author of Preact, that's unlikely because Preact's implementation is very different (it's not just a cleanroom implementation of the same thing). However I'd be more worried that Facebook might hold patents not limited to React itself. Considering how arbitrary software patents often are, I would think it equally as likely that they hold patents covering aspects of Angular or Vue as React. I would al…

> nobody has found any patents filed by Facebook that would actually cover any part of React,

Somebody on /r/ posted this[0].

[0]: https://www.google.com/patents/US20170221242

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