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Organizers have unionized 5,000 contract workers at Apple, Facebook, Yahoo

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Re: Organizers have unionized 5,000 contract workers at Apple, Facebook, Yahoo

#381

Post by morgante »

Clubber wrote: post #376
morgante wrote: post #374

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Bullshit. Don't tell me my own life is bullshit, that's ridiculously patronizing. You'll trust a calculator over my own personal direct experience? Not to mention that the very forum you linked says $60k is very possible. > Pick any calculator. Here's one of many linked by the US Department of State. All of those calculators make the ridiculous mistake of adjusting income instead of expenses. Income should only be…

>Don't tell me my own life is bullshit, that's ridiculously patronizing. But it's not your life is it? You're a top tier developer in SV making $200-300K+, not some guy living the good life and saving aggressively making $60K. >Not to mention that the very forum you linked says $60k is very possible. This is what you said that was bullshit. >It's very possible to live a good life even in SV/NYC on $60k/yr in expenses…

I'm going to stop engaging with you, since it's clear that you'd rather make up facts and deliberately misinterpret my statements than discuss in good faith. For example, I specifically said $60k/yr in expenses—which obviously excludes savings and is a totally different number from income.

Maybe read up on investments and personal finance when you get a chance. You seem to have a very shaky grasp of fundamentals like opportunity cost or safe withdrawal rates. There are entire forums of people who retired on $1M or less in assets: https://www.reddit.com/r/financialindependence/

Re: Organizers have unionized 5,000 contract workers at Apple, Facebook, Yahoo

#382

Post by pyrale »

jules wrote: post #263
pyrale wrote: post #249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point you don't seem to realize in that string of comments is that the amount of extorsion that happens in an unregulated market becomes so large over time that it eventually leads to the dominant player stripping the dominated player of any hint of dignity and reduce him to total dependence. You cannot just look the other way and pretend there is still free choice when these people are captive and not even able…

> You cannot just look the other way and pretend there is still free choice when these people are captive and not even able to search for a new job. Holding people captive is the opposite of voluntary. > Here are a few examples to start with First example: Colorado National Guard massacres workers who refuse to work. Second example: a company, working together with the sheriff, kidnaps and kills people who refuse to…

You did not follow my advice: rather than fixating on the violence, look at what happened before: these workers effectively lived in cities where the only jobs available were those provided by the mine owners. In the case of Ludlow, despite it being illegal, they were paid in script money. This means they could only buy from the company, and only what the company would sell to them. The pay incentive system, which only rewarded coal extracted and not, consolidation work led to deadly work operations. Curfews could be imposed in the city by the authority, which was also the landlord, employer and provider of every other service.

In that context, claiming that a choice is possible for miners is an illusion. And as many examples illustrate, physical violence is merely one more step which can not perceived as fundamentally different from the previous ones.

This is why this violence was the natural next move whenever miners tried to unionize.

Re: Organizers have unionized 5,000 contract workers at Apple, Facebook, Yahoo

#384

Post by nnfy »

matchagaucho wrote: post #347
nnfy wrote: post #345

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Two points: 1. There is nothing in this discussion to suggest that employees do not have freedom to choose work; in fact, contracting by its very nature leaves individuals with more freedom to choose work elsewhere, even concurrently. 2. Without the freedom to choose employees as an employer, corporations cannot exist, or at least are substiantally less efficient, and in such case all of society is worse off. This is…

This line of reasoning is bordering on arrogance. To give a Worker one choice and calling it "freedom" is extremely callous. The skillsets we're talking about here (Cafeteria Workers and Bus Drivers) are not conducive to "self-employment". The Workers cannot set their own hours or rates; both requirements defined by the IRS to qualify as "Independent Contractor". See https://www.irs.gov/businesses/small-businesses-se…

Again, the problem here is workers voluntarily entering into illegally mislabeled positions. Where do you get the idea that a cafeteria worker or a bus driver can't leave to work for another school? Also, these are extremely low skill positions, there's nothing stopping these people from getting other jobs, why you feel like these workers have "one choice" is beyond me.

I still don't understand what you're getting at. These people are free to work wherever they wish, and you've yet to demonstrate that there's something wrong with contracting in principle, when done legally.

People shouldn't be unionizing, they should be talking to lawyers.

Re: Organizers have unionized 5,000 contract workers at Apple, Facebook, Yahoo

#385

Post by jules »

pyrale wrote: post #382
jules wrote: post #263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You cannot just look the other way and pretend there is still free choice when these people are captive and not even able to search for a new job. Holding people captive is the opposite of voluntary. > Here are a few examples to start with First example: Colorado National Guard massacres workers who refuse to work. Second example: a company, working together with the sheriff, kidnaps and kills people who refuse to…

You did not follow my advice: rather than fixating on the violence, look at what happened before: these workers effectively lived in cities where the only jobs available were those provided by the mine owners. In the case of Ludlow, despite it being illegal, they were paid in script money. This means they could only buy from the company, and only what the company would sell to them. The pay incentive system, which on…

Why is that relevant when the violence was initiated by the company?

Re: Organizers have unionized 5,000 contract workers at Apple, Facebook, Yahoo

#386

Post by mseebach »

minhaz23 wrote: post #331
tptacek wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have effectively no college, and went to work right after high school. Whatever labor organization tech workers come up with doesn't have to be the AFL-CIO and it doesn't have to be the AMA. It can just take the best attributes from all those organizations. Or it can start more modestly! Maybe tech workers will just come up with two or three things --- say, late exercise on options and better IP clauses --- and jus…

Hey irrelevant but can I ask how did you enter the tech industry without college? If self taught can I ask how did you teach yourself and what (why), and with what resources?

For me, I started out with BASIC and a library book and a supportive dad, then HTML and Javascript, most likely based on random online guides (this was late 90's), online communities (likely newsgroups and IRC, and I spent a lot of time on Slashdot), then PHP, based on the same. Along the way I taught myself Linux, too.

Why? It was what was there and what was accessible. There wasn't a particular plan or direction, just the excitement of getting the computer to do what I wanted it to do.

Re: Organizers have unionized 5,000 contract workers at Apple, Facebook, Yahoo

#387

Post by raarts »

azza2110 wrote: post #362
rtpg wrote: post #281

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok so something more recent: Unions are constantly fighting to make sure that the pilots of commercial planes are allowed to get enough sleep and not be totally exhausted while flying. And to make sure that flight attendants are only half-zombies...

A typical 737 pilot earns 200-250k AUD and can work no more than 72 hours per month, including training, admin, etc. If a pilot needs so much sleep that they can only safely work 18 hours per week, I'd hate to think how compromised a passenger's safety is when being shuttled around by a Taxi/Uber driver working 40-80 hours per week.

Recently on a transatlantic flight I happened to sit next to the 2-year girlfriend of the pilot. She expressed amazement towards the little time he actually worked. Even while flying he just 'sat in the cockpit discussing fast cars 90% of the time'.

Re: Organizers have unionized 5,000 contract workers at Apple, Facebook, Yahoo

#388

Post by jahaja »

jules wrote: post #236
vkou wrote: post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no such thing as a market with no involuntary transactions, as all externalities are involuntary transactions. When your factory is producing noise pollution around it, is that a volutary transaction you have entered into with your neighbours? What about when it pollutes the air, or the water? What about transactions where both sides don't have perfect information? How can you voluntarily agree to a transact…

Strictly speaking there is indeed no such thing as a completely voluntary transaction, as every transaction affects a third party, even if in a minuscule way. Similar criticisms can be made of any system, or any word (such as "voluntary") for that matter. The original point of discussion was whether "unregulated market" includes shooting people. As I said above: > Capitalism is by no means a perfectly well defined sy…

> In order for language to be useful we have to assign a reasonable range of meaning to a word.

It's just too convenient to define the range to what amounts to a modern version of the divine rights of kings. Where certain meanings - voluntary and property rights in particular - become some sorts of theological constants in which the privileges of the king (or property owner in the libertarian case), which have no bearing in justice, are explained.

It's basically ad-hoc law in benefit of the privileged. Bottom-up resistance is violence. Top-down violence/exploitation is a voluntary exchange.

Re: Organizers have unionized 5,000 contract workers at Apple, Facebook, Yahoo

#389

Post by minhaz23 »

mseebach wrote: post #386
minhaz23 wrote: post #331

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hey irrelevant but can I ask how did you enter the tech industry without college? If self taught can I ask how did you teach yourself and what (why), and with what resources?

For me, I started out with BASIC and a library book and a supportive dad, then HTML and Javascript, most likely based on random online guides (this was late 90's), online communities (likely newsgroups and IRC, and I spent a lot of time on Slashdot), then PHP, based on the same. Along the way I taught myself Linux, too. Why? It was what was there and what was accessible. There wasn't a particular plan or direction, j…

I felt that same excitement when I was a kid. Like 10 years ago maybe? The excitement of making a computer do what you want it to do. I used to mod Halo Combat Evolved games for fun and just put random code together and make shit work, picked up HTML and CSS even trying to make myself and some friends clan websites! My father didnt foster it as much, and somewhere along the line I stopped messing around and tinkering with all that stuff. Now I'm in my early 20's and really want to and need to get a job in the tech field. I feel really bad saying I want it for the money mainly, but it seems to be frowned upon when I ask around what can and should I learn to fast track my way to employability. Any advice?

Re: Organizers have unionized 5,000 contract workers at Apple, Facebook, Yahoo

#390

Post by crdoconnor »

jules wrote: post #169
crdoconnor wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The elimination of child labor was NOT a result of increased productivity, in fact it grew during the onset of the industrial revolution. it came about as a result of a series of fierce union battles. https://www.continuetolearn.uiowa.edu/laborctr/child_labor/a...

Children worked at their parents' subsistence farms before the industrial revolution. That is still child labour.

Did I say that they didn't or that it wasn't?
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