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Organizers have unionized 5,000 contract workers at Apple, Facebook, Yahoo

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Re: Organizers have unionized 5,000 contract workers at Apple, Facebook, Yahoo

#371

Post by sokoloff »

Clubber wrote: post #369
sokoloff wrote: post #356

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you want the layoffs to be based solely on your union seniority number rather your individual value to the on-going company?

You give companies too much credit. When it comes to layoff time, most companies don't know or don't care what your individual value is. They need to make a number and will cut whatever they think they can to make that number. Most of the time, if they actually try to "rightsize," which isn't that often, it's the new guys who don't have the domain knowledge or the expensive guys who are assholes and redundant. This g…

Those two points are undeniably sound advice, simple to state, and hard for some people to apply.

Re: Organizers have unionized 5,000 contract workers at Apple, Facebook, Yahoo

#372

Post by _jal »

ericd wrote: post #349
_jal wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right, they manage wages with entry limits and what amount to extended hazing rituals. And the power offered by controlling entry shifts negotiating tactics - strikes would rarely have a point. (Although doctors have gone on strike[1] in the US, it is just rare.) They are still labor unions with government-recognized powers, and they carefully look after their members' interests. [1] Stricken, struck, striked?

Those of us with more anti-authoritarian leanings don't relish the idea of having an organization with power over our entire profession... As an alternative, anyone can start a company that puts into practice some of the employee friendly ideas you have, and use that to compete for workers, and try to move the market towards that ideal. I did that, and I really enjoyed the experience. I think my co-workers did too.

Totally get that. I wasn't trying to make a normative argument here, just pointing out that the state Bar and the SEIU are in the same business. For the record, I do consider some of the externalities generated by the professional guilds to be among the worst negatives of unions.

As far as where I'm coming from, I used to be more libertarian-ish. I guess I've come to a view that as population density and interconnectedness increases, maintaining societal stability requires ideologically impure and economically suboptimal compromises. Call it pragmatic socio-nihilism.

Re: Organizers have unionized 5,000 contract workers at Apple, Facebook, Yahoo

#373

Post by xyzzy_plugh »

pavement wrote: post #335
xyzzy_plugh wrote: post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was present when a facilities manager explained why we shouldn't use spray-cleaner to clean whiteboards, because it wore down the paint faster, and repainting it cost $10k, and that they had already paid to repaint them twice.

...and then the facilities manager threw up their hands, sighed, said " yeah, but what can you do... " flipped through a couple of emails on the old smart phone, then went and sat down and watched some crap on youtube for a few more hours, until oh... 4:35 PM, close enough, and clocked out for the day, with the wall still unpainted. C'est la vie.

My understanding is that per regulations only union labor is permitted to perform various tasks -- you can't just call any old contractor to install light fixtures.

This was a requirement having to do with the location, I am not sure about the specifics (if it was a city thing or if the building owner had entered into such an agreement) but I'd like to have a better understanding. On the face of it, it does seem absurd.

Re: Organizers have unionized 5,000 contract workers at Apple, Facebook, Yahoo

#374

Post by morgante »

Clubber wrote: post #368
morgante wrote: post #363

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My estimate is skewed downwards because you asked for average, and a significant percentage of the cohort is new grads and relatively inexperienced developers. Senior developers can certainly make above $300k. You seem to put far too much stock in cost of living adjustments (a very common fallacy on HN). Such adjustments should be applied to expenses, not income, and neglects the fact that many expenses don't multipl…

>Such adjustments should be applied to expenses, not income, and neglects the fact that many expenses don't multiplicatively scale with location. Only the big ones, housing, food, transportation. >It's very possible to live a good life even in SV/NYC on $60k/yr in expenses, leaving tons of room for aggressive savings. Bullshit. http://www.city-data.com/forum/san-francisco-oakland/189180-... >At the very least, tell m…

> Bullshit.

Don't tell me my own life is bullshit, that's ridiculously patronizing. You'll trust a calculator over my own personal direct experience?

Not to mention that the very forum you linked says $60k is very possible.

> Pick any calculator. Here's one of many linked by the US Department of State.

All of those calculators make the ridiculous mistake of adjusting income instead of expenses. Income should only be adjusted if you're living paycheck-to-paycheck.

Even if you assume all expenses scale by that factor, you're much better off saving $100k/yr in SV than $50k/yr in the midwest. Not to mention that tons of expenses (cable subscriptions, vacations, e-commerce) don't scale with location.

I'm tired of fighting this fight on HN. Believe CoL calculators all you want—meanwhile, SV engineers can save enough to retire to the midwest by the time they're 35.

> That's how it works.

It is extremely rare that two equally qualified candidates are both negotiating offers for a single position at the same time. Your scenario is contrived and I have literally never seen it happen despite negotiating dozens of job offers.

Re: Organizers have unionized 5,000 contract workers at Apple, Facebook, Yahoo

#375

Post by noobermin »

Density wrote: post #320
noobermin wrote: post #255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You might have missed this discussion from a few days ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15116861

That discussion is extremely weird. Posters are claiming that since Speech recognition took decades so must self driving cars. Speech recognition decades ago has nothing to do with speech recognition today. I understand the skepticism but I hope HN posters can make stronger arguments in the future.

Sigh, I don't know how that comment got to the top. This[0] for me was a more interesting discussion (and I ranted in a reply). Basically, level 5 automation (the kind that would require no human interaction, which is what the comment above is referring to, is a long way off according to [0], but it's not like other things like level 4 automation can't happen soon and be immensely helpful for society.

But it isn't going to put hundreds of drivers out of work.

[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15116991

Re: Organizers have unionized 5,000 contract workers at Apple, Facebook, Yahoo

#376

Post by Clubber »

morgante wrote: post #374
Clubber wrote: post #368

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Such adjustments should be applied to expenses, not income, and neglects the fact that many expenses don't multiplicatively scale with location. Only the big ones, housing, food, transportation. >It's very possible to live a good life even in SV/NYC on $60k/yr in expenses, leaving tons of room for aggressive savings. Bullshit. http://www.city-data.com/forum/san-francisco-oakland/189180-... >At the very least, tell m…

> Bullshit. Don't tell me my own life is bullshit, that's ridiculously patronizing. You'll trust a calculator over my own personal direct experience? Not to mention that the very forum you linked says $60k is very possible. > Pick any calculator. Here's one of many linked by the US Department of State. All of those calculators make the ridiculous mistake of adjusting income instead of expenses. Income should only be…

>Don't tell me my own life is bullshit, that's ridiculously patronizing.

But it's not your life is it? You're a top tier developer in SV making $200-300K+, not some guy living the good life and saving aggressively making $60K.

>Not to mention that the very forum you linked says $60k is very possible.

This is what you said that was bullshit.

>It's very possible to live a good life even in SV/NYC on $60k/yr in expenses, leaving tons of room for aggressive savings.

Nowhere on that forum does anyone say they can live a good life in SV for $60K a year leaving tons of room for aggressive savings. It's a bunch of single people living in 1-2 bedroom shoeboxes with two roommates and $200 to spare a month. Maybe we just have large difference in our definition of good life and aggressive savings.

>Even if you assume all expenses scale by that factor, you're much better off saving $100k/yr in SV than $50k/yr in the midwest.

Yes, I agree with that. That was something I pointed out, one of the only benefits of living and working in SV. It's still no place to plant roots, even on that salary. It just doesn't pay enough. That goes back to my original point. Developers are underpaid regardless of location, particularly for a field in such high demand.

Here's some listings on Realtor.com for SF.

https://www.realtor.com/realestateandhomes-detail/238-Thrift...

A house the same size as mine (minus the yard) is 8x as expensive, yet a developer in SV only makes 2x more. I mean even if you buy a small little 1000 sq foot house, you're still paying 3-4x more than I am and you get less than half of the house. If you live in an apartment, you're just throwing your money away by not building any equity.

>Not to mention that tons of expenses (cable subscriptions, vacations, e-commerce) don't scale with location.

So ya, that's true but who cares? That's such a small percentage of your expenses. Like I said before, housing, transportation and food do scale with location and that's the majority of monthly expenditures, and also necessities.

Also I'm sorry to tell you but $1 million after 10 years isn't enough to retire on at 35, even in the midwest. You'll have to invest wisely or take another job or start a profitable business. Once you have a family and get older, things get expensive, even in the midwest. You still have 50 years left to live with inflation, college, etc.

>It is extremely rare that two equally qualified candidates are both negotiating offers for a single position at the same time. Your scenario is contrived and I have literally never seen it happen despite negotiating dozens of job offers.

From the hiring side?

Re: Organizers have unionized 5,000 contract workers at Apple, Facebook, Yahoo

#377

Post by Clubber »

sokoloff wrote: post #371
Clubber wrote: post #369

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You give companies too much credit. When it comes to layoff time, most companies don't know or don't care what your individual value is. They need to make a number and will cut whatever they think they can to make that number. Most of the time, if they actually try to "rightsize," which isn't that often, it's the new guys who don't have the domain knowledge or the expensive guys who are assholes and redundant. This g…

Those two points are undeniably sound advice, simple to state, and hard for some people to apply.

Indeed.

Re: Organizers have unionized 5,000 contract workers at Apple, Facebook, Yahoo

#378

Post by confounded »

emodendroket wrote: post #248
mc32 wrote: post #65

This is a bit misleading. Union power is putting pressure on service economy companies which in turn service tech companies. Tech workers are not unionizing -and I can't imagine they would, given their pay compared to other sectors. I could see an AMA type organization perhaps. On the other hand, unfortunately, companies no longer staff vertically. When they can outsource their non core competencies they do. They don…

> Tech workers are not unionizing -and I can't imagine they would, given their pay compared to other sectors. You know, the big pay-fixing scandal with Google and Apple didn't happen that long ago.

Yup. Whether the word "union" is seen as encumbered with unfavorable baggage by us or not, our employers are pretty happy to organize to push our conditions in one direction. It is irrational to be opposed to organizing to push our conditions in the other direction. They're more scared of us than they let on! : )

(Regardless, I'm extremely pleased that tech workers are lending their support to getting the lower paid workers at their companies organized and able to negotiate better conditions.)

Re: Organizers have unionized 5,000 contract workers at Apple, Facebook, Yahoo

#379

Post by confounded »

mc32 wrote: post #79
gok wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Tech workers are not unionizing -and I can't imagine they would, given their pay compared to other sectors. Unions needn’t be only for the middle class. See professional sports players unions for example.

Isn't that a diff scenario given the sports leagues are granted legal monopoly exemptions? Not to say that obviates the need, or delegitimizes the idea, but rather the pressure for it isn't as mounting.

Professional associations are just unions for richer people. Accountants, actuaries, doctors, etc. etc. ad nauseam.

Re: Organizers have unionized 5,000 contract workers at Apple, Facebook, Yahoo

#380

Post by confounded »

halflings wrote: post #278

> When the crowd reconvened, Andrew Barney, a former Intel cafeteria worker, drew cheers and applause when he said, “I think Google should pay the residents of this community for being allowed to squat in our backyard.” “Google’s vulnerable right now with all this building and everything they’re doing, and they need a lot of approvals,” says the Teamsters’ Aloise. “We may just pick one, one time, to get involved, and…

Assuming you don't mean help Google, why not?
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