Organizers have unionized 5,000 contract workers at Apple, Facebook, Yahoo • Hacker News Board

Re: Organizers have unionized 5,000 contract workers at Apple, Facebook, Yahoo

#341

Post by wfo » Fri, Sep 15, 2017, 1:37 AM UTC

ericd wrote: post #336

wfo wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually small businesses (while they vary widely and many of them can be good) can be home to the worst kind of abuse. Small business owners can be absolutely monstrous tyrants to their employees. Have you ever met a waitress at a restaurant who hasn't been sexually harassed by her boss? I've met.. one? and I've met quite a few waitresses. She can't complain to HR, there is no HR, there are no policies, there is jus…

With small companies, it's much easier to hop to another small company than it is if you work at the only car plant in town. And I'm sure there are restaurant owners out there who aren't complete assholes.

Yes, you can hop from tyranny to tyranny until you find a dictator who will have mercy on you and not abuse you as much, losing your health insurance and livelihood with every hop, hoping you don't become homeless or destitute or get sick every time you are abused. And maybe, if you're lucky, there is a company in your area that does what you know how to do and is decent, and you haven't had your reputation as a "complainer" who dares challenges your boss spread around town.

Alternately, we could institute worker protections and support unions (which are necessary to develop the political will to institute worker protections) so they all have to treat you decently and everyone who works hard for a living can have a humane reasonable life.

Re: Organizers have unionized 5,000 contract workers at Apple, Facebook, Yahoo

#342

Post by owebmaster » Fri, Sep 15, 2017, 1:39 AM UTC

jhall1468 wrote: post #339

Density wrote: post #320

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That discussion is extremely weird. Posters are claiming that since Speech recognition took decades so must self driving cars. Speech recognition decades ago has nothing to do with speech recognition today. I understand the skepticism but I hope HN posters can make stronger arguments in the future.

I agree. Transformative technology has this effect on people. The other day I was arguing with someone that said we need true Artificial General Intellegence before full autonomy is available. I'm fine with skepticism, but these types of unfounded claims drive me crazy. If you want to argue the companies aren't really moving the tech as fast as they claim, post actual evidence, not some nonsense about speech recognit…

Technologists have a bad habit of not taking consideration the political and social sides of innovation. The success of autonomous cars depends less on the tech as much as it would depends more on politics. As tech don't mix well with politics and the interests of the majority, autonomous cars will only happen when the tech is good enough to overcome politics. Some people think that this will take decades if not centuries.

Re: Organizers have unionized 5,000 contract workers at Apple, Facebook, Yahoo

#343

Post by Spooky23 » Fri, Sep 15, 2017, 1:43 AM UTC

CryptoPunk wrote: post #333

Spooky23 wrote: post #332

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's the argument of a boss in version of the prisoners dilemma. The reality is that you are a widget, you probably make less several people whom you consider a less able and "ambitious" than you, and your salary is only loosely associated with your value, if at all.

That's the class warfare paradigm that boils the world down to two monolithic blocs: employers and employees. He is not a widget. A workforce is made up people with diverse and varying skills. It's in the interest of society to incentivise individual skills development and promotion of people with more skill into positions of greater authority and responsibility, by allowing employers to base compensation and promoti…

It's a market. I don't care about society, I care about delivering cash to my shareholders.

All business is about repeatable process. Domain experts build a process. The operations people execute. Lather, rinse, repeat.

People are nurtured/developed/promoted because it is cheaper to do that than to go back to the market. But, every single individual is expendable and replacable. There may be pain or cost associated with someone leaving, but a viable business will survive.

If you think you are essential to your employer, film a little video explaining why, post or save it somewhere and set a calendar entry to visit it again in 5 years. You'll have a good laugh in 5 years.

Re: Organizers have unionized 5,000 contract workers at Apple, Facebook, Yahoo

#344

Post by ericd » Fri, Sep 15, 2017, 1:44 AM UTC

Chiba-City wrote: post #307

There are no lifetime guaranteed jobs. That is a peculiar idea that might only apply to being "born to farm your patch" in history at all. Institutions and entire job categories go away. Collective bargaining is OK and not usually conflictual outside down cycles or downsizing legacy industries. The conflict narratives appeal far more to general consumers. Working class hero is huge in American history for both good a…

You bring up a major downside to industry-wide unions in that a single bad decision by a small group of people can make it so that an entire industry can suffer, rather than many entities battling it out with a variety of decisions, which would give employees choice, and give some opportunity for the best decisions to win out over time.

Perhaps the problem is not unions, but monopolization of an industry's workers by a single union.

Re: Organizers have unionized 5,000 contract workers at Apple, Facebook, Yahoo

#345

Post by nnfy » Fri, Sep 15, 2017, 1:49 AM UTC

SolarNet wrote: post #309

nnfy wrote: post #308

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is that abusive? If you want more secure work, don't offer your services as a contractor. Are you trying to suggest that there is something inherently abusive about contracting? What if I don't want a full time gig?

Because if you don't work for someone you die and/or live a terrible life. Without the freedom to choose work, the labor market is not a free market, and the narrative you are trying to push does not apply.

Two points: 1. There is nothing in this discussion to suggest that employees do not have freedom to choose work; in fact, contracting by its very nature leaves individuals with more freedom to choose work elsewhere, even concurrently.

2. Without the freedom to choose employees as an employer, corporations cannot exist, or at least are substiantally less efficient, and in such case all of society is worse off. This is where aggressive unions can be bad for employees.

I dont understand your point.

Re: Organizers have unionized 5,000 contract workers at Apple, Facebook, Yahoo

#346

Post by pasquinelli » Fri, Sep 15, 2017, 1:59 AM UTC

ic4l wrote: post #166

AlexC04 wrote: post #3

> Eventually, Facebook says, it OK’d proposed terms of the contract, which hiked drivers’ average pay by half, to $27.50 an hour, and for the first time provided fully paid family health care. For those people doing the driving that's pretty great news. I hope they also took care of those working conditions issues too. Split shifts etc...

Won't last long. Few more years, and it will be a autonomous fleet anyways.

in that case they've got to get it while the getting's good.

Re: Organizers have unionized 5,000 contract workers at Apple, Facebook, Yahoo

#347

Post by matchagaucho » Fri, Sep 15, 2017, 2:07 AM UTC

nnfy wrote: post #345

SolarNet wrote: post #309

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because if you don't work for someone you die and/or live a terrible life. Without the freedom to choose work, the labor market is not a free market, and the narrative you are trying to push does not apply.

Two points: 1. There is nothing in this discussion to suggest that employees do not have freedom to choose work; in fact, contracting by its very nature leaves individuals with more freedom to choose work elsewhere, even concurrently. 2. Without the freedom to choose employees as an employer, corporations cannot exist, or at least are substiantally less efficient, and in such case all of society is worse off. This is…

This line of reasoning is bordering on arrogance. To give a Worker one choice and calling it "freedom" is extremely callous.

The skillsets we're talking about here (Cafeteria Workers and Bus Drivers) are not conducive to "self-employment".

The Workers cannot set their own hours or rates; both requirements defined by the IRS to qualify as "Independent Contractor".

See https://www.irs.gov/businesses/small-businesses-self-employe...

Re: Organizers have unionized 5,000 contract workers at Apple, Facebook, Yahoo

#348

Post by Clubber » Fri, Sep 15, 2017, 2:09 AM UTC

nikanj wrote: post #272

morgante wrote: post #254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Since there is a short supply of software engineers, why do you think wages haven't risen? They definitely have, at least for the high end of the market. For example, Hired shows a 3.28% increase in salaries for SF engineers this year. [0] > I suspect that's because businesses manipulate that so they can hire offshore workers cheaper. I'm positive that open salary initiatives are not an attempt to hire H1B workers.…

You'd be surprised how many companies aspire to hire Wayne Gretzky - and then complain when he wants new skates every season

Great analogy. I'm going to use that one. It's gotten so bad companies won't even let me bring in my own good hardware I paid for to use. Dual core laptops with 3 hours battery life, 24" 1920x1080 monitor, mechanical hard drives, all shit.

Re: Organizers have unionized 5,000 contract workers at Apple, Facebook, Yahoo

#349

Post by ericd » Fri, Sep 15, 2017, 2:11 AM UTC

_jal wrote: post #73

gok wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, boards which look after professional certifications do have more power, especially in jurisdictions that give those certifications legal power. But those boards still don’t typically negotiate wages or organize strikes.

Right, they manage wages with entry limits and what amount to extended hazing rituals. And the power offered by controlling entry shifts negotiating tactics - strikes would rarely have a point. (Although doctors have gone on strike[1] in the US, it is just rare.) They are still labor unions with government-recognized powers, and they carefully look after their members' interests. [1] Stricken, struck, striked?

Those of us with more anti-authoritarian leanings don't relish the idea of having an organization with power over our entire profession...

As an alternative, anyone can start a company that puts into practice some of the employee friendly ideas you have, and use that to compete for workers, and try to move the market towards that ideal. I did that, and I really enjoyed the experience. I think my co-workers did too.

Re: Organizers have unionized 5,000 contract workers at Apple, Facebook, Yahoo

#350

Post by Clubber » Fri, Sep 15, 2017, 2:13 AM UTC

morgante wrote: post #313

nikanj wrote: post #272

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You'd be surprised how many companies aspire to hire Wayne Gretzky - and then complain when he wants new skates every season

I don't dispute that there are poorly-run companies which want to underpay and abuse their developers. We don't need a union to solve those companies. Just don't work for them.

>Just don't work for them.

That's a pretty unrealistic solution, especially considering most companies are trying to reduce costs and don't understand the economics of good equipment.

If you don't like hurricanes, just move away from the coast. Simple. /s