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Organizers have unionized 5,000 contract workers at Apple, Facebook, Yahoo

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Re: Organizers have unionized 5,000 contract workers at Apple, Facebook, Yahoo

#321

Post by CryptoPunk »

astrange wrote: post #217
CryptoPunk wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Any wage gains that are derived by unionisation are zero sum. They are economic rent extracted by reducing the competitiveness of labour markets, and advantaging unionized workers working for big employers at the expense of those without such jobs. In the long run, the reduced profit margins caused by wages that are artificially high (above the rate that would be established by the free market) results in less invest…

Wage redistribution isn't zero-sum, because it means less for a rich person to lose a dollar than for a poor person to earn one. Also, I recommend rereading your post with "labour" as "proletariat" and "investor" as "bourgeoisie". Hopefully you'll discover class consciousness.

>Wage redistribution isn't zero-sum, because it means less for a rich person to lose a dollar than for a poor person to earn one.

If that were true we ought to make all income flat. Private property rights allows those who are the smartest investors of capital to generally control more of it. This leads to better capital allocation, which leads to more growth of wealth. Wealth has broad societal benefits through positive externalities so it's in our interest to see it expand, regardless of how it's distributed.

>Hopefully you'll discover class consciousness.

Marxist tribalism. There is a reason all Marxist economies fail to keep up with market economies.

Re: Organizers have unionized 5,000 contract workers at Apple, Facebook, Yahoo

#322

Post by ryandrake »

Clubber wrote: post #200
mc32 wrote: post #65

This is a bit misleading. Union power is putting pressure on service economy companies which in turn service tech companies. Tech workers are not unionizing -and I can't imagine they would, given their pay compared to other sectors. I could see an AMA type organization perhaps. On the other hand, unfortunately, companies no longer staff vertically. When they can outsource their non core competencies they do. They don…

I think a tech union would significantly raise the wages of technical people. A past job, I automated away jobs at $0.10 on the dollar and made a healthy salary, but it obviously was 1/10th of what I was worth. I left that company and all those jobs are still automated away and the more the company grows, the more they save. Also a tech union could push for perks like developer offices, remote work, better work equip…

As someone who's lived through two awful tech downturns so far, now is also the time because the going is relatively good. People will be wishing they did the next time tech downturns and the layoffs begin...

Re: Organizers have unionized 5,000 contract workers at Apple, Facebook, Yahoo

#323

Post by Frondo »

briandear wrote: post #305
forapurpose wrote: post #264

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The reality is these are contractors who will get dropped as soon as it makes sense. Thats why you hire these services as contractors. I think the real test here will be how long till the union pushes facebook too far and they are just dropped. That overlooks the whole point of unions, which is to give people power over their work lives and prevent situations like the one you describe. Perhaps the union won't succe…

The problem with union negotiations is that members’ ability to earn isn’t related to the merits of the member’s ability. I don’t want to make the same exact wage as someone with the same seniority but perhaps less ambition. I am not an interchangeable widget. Everyone is not equal in value despite being equal in seniority or experience. A first year teacher might be amazing, but thanks to unions her wage is codified…

Unions don't have to pay based on seniority.

They are democratically organized, and as such, are structured to reflect the will of their members.

Don't want seniority-based pay? Don't set up your union contract that way.

Re: Organizers have unionized 5,000 contract workers at Apple, Facebook, Yahoo

#324

Post by morgante »

ryandrake wrote: post #318
morgante wrote: post #242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think a tech union would significantly raise the wages of technical people. By what mechanism? Either they engage in collective bargaining, which is filled with problems, or artificially constrict the supply of labor by requiring additional licensing. Considering there is already a shortage of software engineers, constricting it further is unlikely to be net positive. From where I'm standing, the current system w…

> Considering there is already a shortage of software engineers, constricting it further is unlikely to be net positive. "Shortage of software engineers": The myth that just won't die. If this were true, salaries would be skyrocketing, companies wouldn't have the luxury of being as picky as they are, and open reqs wouldn't attract hundreds of applicants. > I just accepted a new job and the process of getting there in…

> If this were true, salaries would be skyrocketing

In my corner of the world, they definitely are.

I think a lot of these discussions are complicated by the fact that there are essentially two developer job markets: prime and sub-prime. The prime developer market is for top-tier developers who work at top tech companies and startups, primarily in SV & NYC. The sub-prime developer market is all the developers working on companies whose primary product isn't software.

The hiring market for both markets looks very different, especially since people don't really recognize that as such. A hiring manager in the prime market might legitimately perceive there as being a shortage, even when receiving dozens or hundreds of resumes because the vast majority of those resumes are simply not qualified. When I was last hiring, we received plenty of resumes—but many of those resumes were from people who exclusively had Microsoft experience or simply maintained WordPress installations. They didn't meet my standard for a senior developer, and once we found someone who did meet that standard after months of searching we did whatever it took to hire them.

I don't feel like an outlier, since I'm looking at the market from the prime sector where it's normal and expected to have multiple competing offers.

There can be a shortage of senior developers while still having hundreds of applications for every open position because most of those applications won't pass the bar. If you're capable of passing that bar, you have your pick of positions.

Re: Organizers have unionized 5,000 contract workers at Apple, Facebook, Yahoo

#325

Post by matchagaucho »

nnfy wrote: post #308
matchagaucho wrote: post #293

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"The reality is these are contractors who will get dropped as soon as it makes sense. " This is exactly the kind of abuse Unions seek to end. Workers cannot simply be fired. The collective bargaining contract signed between the tech companies and Unions defines grounds for termination.

Why is that abusive? If you want more secure work, don't offer your services as a contractor. Are you trying to suggest that there is something inherently abusive about contracting? What if I don't want a full time gig?

Outsourcing companies are treating Workers like Employees and misclassifying them as "Contractors".

The Workers are told where to work, what time shifts to work, how to do their job, provided tools and equipment, and their pay is limited to minimum wage (or just marginally higher).

That's just straight up abusive and illegal. They are treated like Employees and therefore deserve the benefits of Employees; including healthcare and paid vacation.

Re: Organizers have unionized 5,000 contract workers at Apple, Facebook, Yahoo

#326

Post by ryandrake »

morgante wrote: post #324
ryandrake wrote: post #318

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Considering there is already a shortage of software engineers, constricting it further is unlikely to be net positive. "Shortage of software engineers": The myth that just won't die. If this were true, salaries would be skyrocketing, companies wouldn't have the luxury of being as picky as they are, and open reqs wouldn't attract hundreds of applicants. > I just accepted a new job and the process of getting there in…

> If this were true, salaries would be skyrocketing In my corner of the world, they definitely are. I think a lot of these discussions are complicated by the fact that there are essentially two developer job markets: prime and sub-prime. The prime developer market is for top-tier developers who work at top tech companies and startups, primarily in SV & NYC. The sub-prime developer market is all the developers working…

My guess is that what you describe as the "prime" developer market represents 1% of the tech labor force, surely no more than 10%. Much smaller than you think it is. There are plenty of talented people, even in these "top" tech companies, who do not have 6-7 offers thrown at them regularly and have to slug it out with the rest of us in a brutal labor market. I think what is being argued here is whether collective action would be beneficial to the remaining 90-99%.

Re: Organizers have unionized 5,000 contract workers at Apple, Facebook, Yahoo

#327

Post by deathanatos »

ryandrake wrote: post #318
morgante wrote: post #242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think a tech union would significantly raise the wages of technical people. By what mechanism? Either they engage in collective bargaining, which is filled with problems, or artificially constrict the supply of labor by requiring additional licensing. Considering there is already a shortage of software engineers, constricting it further is unlikely to be net positive. From where I'm standing, the current system w…

> Considering there is already a shortage of software engineers, constricting it further is unlikely to be net positive. "Shortage of software engineers": The myth that just won't die. If this were true, salaries would be skyrocketing, companies wouldn't have the luxury of being as picky as they are, and open reqs wouldn't attract hundreds of applicants. > I just accepted a new job and the process of getting there in…

> The myth that just won't die. If this were true, salaries would be skyrocketing, companies wouldn't have the luxury of being as picky as they are, and open reqs wouldn't attract hundreds of applicants.

I don't know whether to think it is real, or that it is a myth. It's true that tech companies are picky, it's true that salaries are not skyrocketing. Open reqs attract hundreds of unqualified applicants, at least, that was my impression.

> With no alternatives, you have little power to negotiate: you take it or leave it.

I just wanted to add, this is inline with my experience. It is difficult to get multiple offers to align in the manner suggested.

Re: Organizers have unionized 5,000 contract workers at Apple, Facebook, Yahoo

#328

Post by nnfy »

matchagaucho wrote: post #325
nnfy wrote: post #308

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is that abusive? If you want more secure work, don't offer your services as a contractor. Are you trying to suggest that there is something inherently abusive about contracting? What if I don't want a full time gig?

Outsourcing companies are treating Workers like Employees and misclassifying them as "Contractors". The Workers are told where to work, what time shifts to work, how to do their job, provided tools and equipment, and their pay is limited to minimum wage (or just marginally higher). That's just straight up abusive and illegal. They are treated like Employees and therefore deserve the benefits of Employees; including h…

So then I presume you will agree that there is nothing inherently abusive with contracting, and the problem stems from misclassification, and the behavior is already illegal, right?

If contractors willingly sign on for the micromanagement that you mention, and are free to quit at any time, why exactly is this a problem that needs solving? No one is forcing foreign nationals to work for American companies. Clearly this "abusive" relationship is favorable to both parties, otherwise the outsourced employees would leave.

When someone has freedom of association, and is made aware of working conditions prior to making major life changes to start a new job, or the job is explicitly billed as temporary contract work, who are you to decide on someone's behalf what is and is not abusive, so long as payment is made as agreed?

Re: Organizers have unionized 5,000 contract workers at Apple, Facebook, Yahoo

#329

Post by Spooky23 »

s73ver_ wrote: post #284
dkhenry wrote: post #15

No its not. This is a union fluff piece. The reality is these are contractors who will get dropped as soon as it makes sense. Thats why you hire these services as contractors. I think the real test here will be how long till the union pushes facebook too far and they are just dropped. I have never seen a union that could actually compete with non-union shops unless there was a legal force preventing the competition.

"I have never seen a union that could actually compete with non-union shops unless there was a legal force preventing the competition." You say "compete", but I'll bet these people would say "earn a living wage."

Nonsense. Union printers do fine. Ditto hotels and restaurants.

Re: Organizers have unionized 5,000 contract workers at Apple, Facebook, Yahoo

#330

Post by morgante »

ryandrake wrote: post #326
morgante wrote: post #324

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If this were true, salaries would be skyrocketing In my corner of the world, they definitely are. I think a lot of these discussions are complicated by the fact that there are essentially two developer job markets: prime and sub-prime. The prime developer market is for top-tier developers who work at top tech companies and startups, primarily in SV & NYC. The sub-prime developer market is all the developers working…

My guess is that what you describe as the "prime" developer market represents 1% of the tech labor force, surely no more than 10%. Much smaller than you think it is. There are plenty of talented people, even in these "top" tech companies, who do not have 6-7 offers thrown at them regularly and have to slug it out with the rest of us in a brutal labor market. I think what is being argued here is whether collective act…

It's certainly more than 1%. Top tech companies alone employ more than 1% of developers.

> There are plenty of talented people, even in these "top" tech companies, who do not have 6-7 offers thrown at them

That doesn't match my experience at all. Every Google/Facebook/Amazon employee I know constantly has interview requests and people trying to recruit them.

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