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Tell HN: We'll pay for you to sue Equifax

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Re: Tell HN: We'll pay for you to sue Equifax

#71

Post by etjossem »

matt_wulfeck wrote: post #51

I thought about this, but how do you prove damages? Judges don't like you wasting their time with theoretical losses. The best I could come up with is the cost of credit monitoring ($20 a month) for life. Does anyone have recommendations for quantifying the damages? Something the judge won't toss out? Also why does this make us put in the court where we will file? Doesn't it need to be where Equifax is located, and w…

I am not a lawyer, this isn't legal advice backed by any level of expertise in the law. But if I had to write a complaint for small claims right now, here's what I'd bring up:

--

FCRA § 604. states that "any consumer reporting agency may furnish a consumer report under the following circumstances and no other", and lists allowable reasons to dispense a credit report.

FCRA § 607. requires compliance, stating that an agency must "limit the furnishing of consumer reports to the purposes listed under section 604."

FCRA § 616. imposes civil liability for willful noncompliance at a minimum of $1000, even if that is greater than actual damages already sustained.

(a) In general. Any person who willfully fails to comply with any requirement imposed under this title with respect to any consumer is liable to that consumer in an amount equal to the sum of

....

(B) in the case of liability of a natural person for obtaining a consumer report under false pretenses or knowingly without a permissible purpose, actual damages sustained by the consumer as a result of the failure or $1,000, whichever is greater;

....

(2) such amount of punitive damages as the court may allow;

--

This suggests to me that you will be able to seek "actual damages sustained by the consumer as a result of the failure or $1,000, whichever is greater", plus any punitive damages the court awards (I do not believe this is generally done in small claims). You would need to demonstrate that the failure to safeguard your information was willful.

Re: Tell HN: We'll pay for you to sue Equifax

#72

Post by sokoloff »

etjossem wrote: post #71
matt_wulfeck wrote: post #51

I thought about this, but how do you prove damages? Judges don't like you wasting their time with theoretical losses. The best I could come up with is the cost of credit monitoring ($20 a month) for life. Does anyone have recommendations for quantifying the damages? Something the judge won't toss out? Also why does this make us put in the court where we will file? Doesn't it need to be where Equifax is located, and w…

I am not a lawyer, this isn't legal advice backed by any level of expertise in the law. But if I had to write a complaint for small claims right now, here's what I'd bring up: -- FCRA § 604. states that "any consumer reporting agency may furnish a consumer report under the following circumstances and no other", and lists allowable reasons to dispense a credit report. FCRA § 607. requires compliance, stating that an a…

I think you'd also have to demonstrate that Equifax "furnished your consumer report".

If I have $1000 in cash stolen from my house by someone not authorized to work in the US, I'm not liable for an employer violation for not filling out an I-9 form...

Re: Tell HN: We'll pay for you to sue Equifax

#73

Post by smsm42 »

DeathRabbit wrote: post #53
k3oni wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do you think will come out of the class-action lawsuits and how much do you think people will get per capita after the lawyers are paid? I have a feeling that in small courts you can at least get more than that. PA for example has a max of $12k claim amount.

Oh, yes, totally agree that the class action suits will result in a sweet $15 check or something. I guess my poorly phrased lament was just in reflection that even the max payout in small claims doesn't seem like a great result given that this stuff is out there permanently. I read some stats that indicated an average of 330 hours for a person to work through fraud on their credit reports or otherwise clean up an ID…

Except you couldn't sue for potential identity theft - to sue Equifax for damages from identity theft, you'd have to prove it actually happened to you personally, and probably also prove Equifax is to blame (which may ironically be harder the more leaks are out there, as they could always claim it's not their leak that led to the theft but someone else's).

Re: Tell HN: We'll pay for you to sue Equifax

#75

Post by smsm42 »

AFAIK small claims court are pretty informal, and most do not allow one to be represented (as opposed to advised, which is allowed) by a lawyer. So I imagine you come to the court, and the judge asks you "OK, tell me why you are suing Equifax", and you, being true to the promise to tell the truth and fearing perjury, answer "I've read an ad from a law firm which promised me that I can sue them for free and get money from it, so that's the reason I am here in the court today - just trying to grab some money from this opportunity". I would be surprised if the judge would be overly sympathetic. [1]

And since judges probably have seen pretty much everything under the sun, they probably would get the gist of it even if you don't answer in these exact words. And I am not sure judges would also be sympathetic to "auto-lawsuit" setups where you are allowed t generate lawsuit by filling a form without anybody actually ensuring there's a case. And Legalist seems to be advertising "automatic" support - i.e. without even considering if you actually have the case or not. It's basically automatic lawsuit generator. I don't think it'd make judges happy.

Lawsuit financing may be a great idea - I actually like this approach - but turning it into opportunistic money-grabbing mill is probably makes more harm than good.

[1] If you don't believe people really answer like that, check this out: https://wlflegalpulse.com/2017/08/18/food-court-follies-frau...

Re: Tell HN: We'll pay for you to sue Equifax

#76

Post by radvocate »

This is terrible advice. In litigation you only get one bite at the apple. Do you want to file a claim now for a few hundred dollars in SC court, or wait until you actually have real damages to cover? If you file and win now, you're out of luck with your future damages.

Re: Tell HN: We'll pay for you to sue Equifax

#77

Post by smsm42 »

clarkevans wrote: post #74

The least Equifax should do is stop charging for monitoring changes, freezing and unfreezing our records.

Fees for freezing/unfreezing sound like a scam - it literally costs them zero to do this (since they have already made the system for doing it) and given the rampant fraud for which they have little protection - they should just make it easy and free. I am generally very laissez-faire person, but this is one of the cases where I'd probably be grudgingly ok with some regulation.

Re: Tell HN: We'll pay for you to sue Equifax

#78

Post by jlgaddis »

Off-topic (but somewhat related, perhaps?) question for any of you who and submitted the form (no cheating, please!):

What type of SSL certificate -- DV or EV -- did the Legalist web site have, if any?

I'm just interested in {whether|how many of} you bothered to look before submitting your information.

(I'm asking because I was reminded of a recent HN discussion about DV/EV certificates and this seemed as good of a "test case" as any.)

Re: Tell HN: We'll pay for you to sue Equifax

#79

Post by jayess »

etjossem wrote: post #71
matt_wulfeck wrote: post #51

I thought about this, but how do you prove damages? Judges don't like you wasting their time with theoretical losses. The best I could come up with is the cost of credit monitoring ($20 a month) for life. Does anyone have recommendations for quantifying the damages? Something the judge won't toss out? Also why does this make us put in the court where we will file? Doesn't it need to be where Equifax is located, and w…

I am not a lawyer, this isn't legal advice backed by any level of expertise in the law. But if I had to write a complaint for small claims right now, here's what I'd bring up: -- FCRA § 604. states that "any consumer reporting agency may furnish a consumer report under the following circumstances and no other", and lists allowable reasons to dispense a credit report. FCRA § 607. requires compliance, stating that an a…

How do you show "willful noncompliance" if they were hacked?

Re: Tell HN: We'll pay for you to sue Equifax

#80

Post by etjossem »

sokoloff wrote: post #72
etjossem wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am not a lawyer, this isn't legal advice backed by any level of expertise in the law. But if I had to write a complaint for small claims right now, here's what I'd bring up: -- FCRA § 604. states that "any consumer reporting agency may furnish a consumer report under the following circumstances and no other", and lists allowable reasons to dispense a credit report. FCRA § 607. requires compliance, stating that an a…

I think you'd also have to demonstrate that Equifax "furnished your consumer report". If I have $1000 in cash stolen from my house by someone not authorized to work in the US, I'm not liable for an employer violation for not filling out an I-9 form...

"The term 'consumer report' means any written, oral, or other communication of any information by a consumer reporting agency bearing on a consumer’s credit worthiness, credit standing, credit capacity, character, general reputation, personal characteristics, or mode of living which is used or expected to be used or collected in whole or in part for the purpose of serving as a factor in establishing the consumer’s eligibility for [credit]."

It's a fairly broad definition. Per press release, Equifax made a data communication of this info to someone who did not show a permissible purpose under § 604.

I would argue that Equifax had months to patch CVE-2017-5638, but they did not. Their web application continued furnishing parts of my consumer report to anyone capable of running https://github.com/mazen160/struts-pwn.

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