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EU lost up to €5.4B in tax revenues from Google, Facebook: report

reuters.com

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Re: EU lost up to €5.4B in tax revenues from Google, Facebook: report

#121

Post by Oletros »

anonymousDan wrote: post #65
seanieb wrote: post #28

"This resulted in estimated revenue losses for EU states, other than Ireland" What does this mean? Ireland is in the EU. It's like complaining France or Germany don't share their tax revenue proportionally with the rest of the EU states. Ireland and other EU states have sovereignty over their own tax laws. If you change that you will basically change what the EU is.

What I want to understand is what happens in the opposite direction, i.e. what does the tax situation look like for e.g Volkswagen cars sold in the US? Do they pay a minimal amount of tax in the US with most of the profits repatriated to Germany? If so it's just a whiney tax grab by the French and Germans who are used to getting their own way in the EU.

> If so it's just a whiney tax grab by the French and Germans who are used to getting their own way in the EU.

What? EU countries are not saying that repatriating profits is bad, what they say is that companies use strategies to avoid to pay taxes.

If USA government think Volkswagen pay so little taxes for revenue done in USA they are the ones that have the saying

Re: EU lost up to €5.4B in tax revenues from Google, Facebook: report

#122

Post by whb07 »

Thiez wrote: post #80
whb07 wrote: post #58

I wonder what would happen if G/F just upped and "left" the EU? Ensuring to close every physical location as they did so. I wonder how much of a bind the politicians would be trying to remain in power as they would be in the position of trying to add Google and Facebook to the ban list or just continuing like normal except with less tax revenue. Does anyone here really believe that any EU bureaucrat would ban Faceboo…

Do you honestly think that without US companies, there will be no search engines and social networks? Here in the Netherlands we had Hyves[1] before we had Facebook, which was pretty big. If, for whatever reason, Facebook were to vanish tomorrow from the EU tomorrow, I have little doubt that we'd all be on a different social network by Christmas. Of course there would be a lot of complaining during the first two week…

I didn't say they would truly close their doors to EU business. Very much the same way they operate in most of the world, that they should apply that to the EU. Google/Facebook don't have offices in over 100+ countries and yet they clearly serve those consumers from those countries just fine.

Take for example my country of Ecuador. I'd find it hard to believe that any tech company is paying taxes in Ecuador and yet their citizens reap vast uses and benefits from Google/Facebook. I'm guessing this applies to 99% of other countries as well.

I'm of a libertarian skew, so most taxes are essentially theft to keep the fat bureaucracy happy. In the case of the EU it's clear extortion.

Re: EU lost up to €5.4B in tax revenues from Google, Facebook: report

#123

Post by SilentCrossing »

mc32 wrote: post #30
SilentCrossing wrote: post #27

So I want to implement Common Consolidated Corporate Tax Base CCCTB across Europe, which means I want to have the power to determine the rules for the whole EU. I then create a report projecting that we could increase our tax revenue if we pass the law to give me more power. I have some thoughts. 1) The projected windfall from this CCCTB will not materialize... if we take history as a indicator. When ever does compan…

Why not for the whole world and get rid of tax havens for corps and for wealthy indivs as well? This would put pressure and incentives on govt's to be fairer about taxes in multiple ways. We've got corps who won't repatriate money cuz profits overseas...[apple and indivs with overseas shell cos, etc.]

The article was about giving tax creation power to Brussels and removing that power from the EU countries. This would not result in a fairer tax, but a tax that you have voice in changing. Brussel bureaucrats are not voted into office by the people and can therefore also not be removed from office by the people.

I agree that governments should strife for a fairer tax and a good start would be a simpler tax. There I agree that unnecessary complexity have created loopholes. I however do think that the European Union should set the example and start paying taxes like normal citizens in their respective countries. The European Patent Offices in Europe do not pay any taxes in the countries they are situated. They have their own internal low tax system. Talk about writing your own rules for avoiding taxes.

Just to touch on the issue of USA companies not repatriating money back to the USA. This is a problem with the USA tax code. The Netherlands for example do not have this issue, since they have double tax treaties with various countries and when they do not have a treaty the participation exemptions kicks in. The participation exemption says that you will not be taxed again in the Netherlands if you own >= 5% of a foreign company when a dividend is payed from the daughter company to parent companies. The logic of the dutch is that foreign dividends have been taxes and is therefore exempt.

Re: EU lost up to €5.4B in tax revenues from Google, Facebook: report

#124

Post by SilentCrossing »

Iv wrote: post #40
SilentCrossing wrote: post #27

So I want to implement Common Consolidated Corporate Tax Base CCCTB across Europe, which means I want to have the power to determine the rules for the whole EU. I then create a report projecting that we could increase our tax revenue if we pass the law to give me more power. I have some thoughts. 1) The projected windfall from this CCCTB will not materialize... if we take history as a indicator. When ever does compan…

Well you can see that as an act of competition between Brussels and the tax havens if you want to frame every human progress in terms of competition between actors.

It is a competition on who has the sovereign power to levy tax. Brussels or the individual country.

Re: EU lost up to €5.4B in tax revenues from Google, Facebook: report

#125

Post by ringtail »

Oletros wrote: post #105
ringtail wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you saying Singapore Co cannot receive payments from French consumers unless they pay corporate income tax to French Govt ? In other words, you are saying EU can deny its citizens right to buy foreign products ?

No, I'm asking how many multinational have left a big market (one of the biggest in the world) just for taxation.

But what do you mean by "leaving a market" ? MNCs have been doing restructring for decades for reasons ranging from regulations to taxes.

If Google do leave EU, all it will do is legal maneuvering. Nothing will change for EU consumers. They can still do Google searches and buy ads. Profit will stay the same.

Re: EU lost up to €5.4B in tax revenues from Google, Facebook: report

#126

Post by whb07 »

SunShiranui wrote: post #83
whb07 wrote: post #58

I wonder what would happen if G/F just upped and "left" the EU? Ensuring to close every physical location as they did so. I wonder how much of a bind the politicians would be trying to remain in power as they would be in the position of trying to add Google and Facebook to the ban list or just continuing like normal except with less tax revenue. Does anyone here really believe that any EU bureaucrat would ban Faceboo…

And leave one of the biggest markets in the world? Why would they?

Why would they be leaving it? I can easily connect to a Russian website with servers in Moscow just fine from anywhere in the world. The same applies to EU citizens.

I'm a strong believer in freedom, to include freedom from unnecessary taxation. If G/F "leaves" EU, I meant it by closing physical locations and the farce they have to put up with for taxes, they could still serve citizens from EU.

Id love to see the story unfold if G/F said "we are American companies only going to pay US taxes" and they quickly closed offices in EU. Do you think EU would create a firewall removing citizens from Facebook/instagram/Gmail/Google search etc ?

Seems to me that in this crazy scenario the EU crooked politicians are left making threats they can't really follow through. They all probably use gmail and how easy is it exactly to start a new on an email account ? How about all your contacts and pictures on FB?

Seems to me that in this world F/G would operate just the same and EU politicians would walk away crying saying "you can't do that it's not fair "

Re: EU lost up to €5.4B in tax revenues from Google, Facebook: report

#127

Post by princeb »

danmaz74 wrote: post #120
microcolonel wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They pay for your infrastructure already (aside from last-mile stuff, which you pay for [partially] whether or not it's a local company). If you tax it, the prices just go up, nothing really changes.

> They pay for your infrastructure already Lol, what? The whole point is that WE pay for the infrastructure with our taxes, and those companies use the infrastructure without paying for it.

> those companies

you mean the people who work to build the structure, the teams, the lines of reporting, the buildings, the equipment, the products, the provision of sales and customer service, the management of all of these... they don't pay tax?

what is a company? who is a company?

if you remove all the things that already pay tax (i.e. people) from a company, does the company still exist? and can it pay tax?

Re: EU lost up to €5.4B in tax revenues from Google, Facebook: report

#128

Post by dangsmum »

Oletros wrote: post #105
ringtail wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you saying Singapore Co cannot receive payments from French consumers unless they pay corporate income tax to French Govt ? In other words, you are saying EU can deny its citizens right to buy foreign products ?

No, I'm asking how many multinational have left a big market (one of the biggest in the world) just for taxation.

biggest ones that immediately springs to mind is C&A and pfiser in the UK. the UK and US auto industries in general, manufacturing in general.

Google left the US.

So did Apple.

In fact, are there any multinationals left in high tax countries?

Re: EU lost up to €5.4B in tax revenues from Google, Facebook: report

#129

Post by whb07 »

ionised wrote: post #106
whb07 wrote: post #58

I wonder what would happen if G/F just upped and "left" the EU? Ensuring to close every physical location as they did so. I wonder how much of a bind the politicians would be trying to remain in power as they would be in the position of trying to add Google and Facebook to the ban list or just continuing like normal except with less tax revenue. Does anyone here really believe that any EU bureaucrat would ban Faceboo…

Google and Facebook have a lot more to lose than the EU in this regard, which is why they will eventually submit to whatever the EU deems reasonable. They are never going to withdraw from the EU. The money they would lose would be immense. The fact that people think Google and Facebook have this kind of power over a developed market of 500 million people is hilarious.

They don't have offices and don't pay taxes for 99% of countries. I don't see you standing up for the sovereign rights of the people from French Guiana or Egypt or Sudan. You see it just so happens that the full breadth of services offered by Facebook and Google are available essentially with a simple internet connection.

I'd dare say you could sign up for Gmail and Facebook as a scientist living in Antártica and who owns that?

It just so happens that the EU machinery is very well adept at being strong enforcers of taxation, in the very same way that you might see the Mafia send in a couple of guys to physically threaten you if you don't pay your debts. Bravo to them, I guess?

Re: EU lost up to €5.4B in tax revenues from Google, Facebook: report

#130

Post by Iv »

SilentCrossing wrote: post #124
Iv wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well you can see that as an act of competition between Brussels and the tax havens if you want to frame every human progress in terms of competition between actors.

It is a competition on who has the sovereign power to levy tax. Brussels or the individual country.

Sure. In my book a competition is between two peers. When the two competitors are grossly asymmetrical I call that a conflict, and consider we are outside of the free market doctrine, but whatever floats your boat.
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