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EU lost up to €5.4B in tax revenues from Google, Facebook: report

reuters.com

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Re: EU lost up to €5.4B in tax revenues from Google, Facebook: report

#31

Post by DannyBee »

"This resulted in estimated revenue losses for EU states, other than Ireland, of between 51 and 54 billion euros between 2013 and 2015, the report concluded."

So if i understand this right, this is basically: the EU didn't really lose anything, since ireland is in the EU, but the other states would have gotten more in total if they weren't allowed to do this?

My other understanding is that the tax laws of all the EU countries are not controlled by the EU, but by the individual countries?

If so, this sounds like it would be like saying "US states lose billions in tax revenue from Google because they locate in delaware"

Is that a reasonable conversion for a US'ian?

Re: EU lost up to €5.4B in tax revenues from Google, Facebook: report

#32

Post by DannyBee »

seszett wrote: post #24
DVassallo wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do they "exist" in the EU? One way to see it is that people from the EU are simply buying services from a US company. It's as if they caught a plane, and paid at a cash register in California. But instead of making the trip, they just sent a check.

> How do they "exist" in the EU? They both have headquarters in Dublin.

Which i'm sure they would happily burn to the ground if it meant they weren't taxed there. I don't think you want to go with the argument of physical presence. It rarely works well with any multinational.

Re: EU lost up to €5.4B in tax revenues from Google, Facebook: report

#33

Post by dangsmum »

gaius wrote: post #8
dangsmum wrote: post #5

What gives the EU the right to think they can tax our networks? Do they not realise that trying to do so will just drive all digital revenue to places that don't?

There's no such thing as "digital revenue" - all this money comes from the real economy.

thats what the bitcoin detractors said, didnt work out to well for them did it?

and anyway, even if you limit it to "real economy" (if anything in cyberspace can really be counted as real, which is highly suspect) it comes from ad revenue. all taxing eu ad revenue in cyberspace will do is ensure eu companies cant competitively show their ads in cyberspace, doing so will lose the eu a lot more than just "tax".

Re: EU lost up to €5.4B in tax revenues from Google, Facebook: report

#34

Post by jmfayard »

SilentCrossing wrote: post #27

So I want to implement Common Consolidated Corporate Tax Base CCCTB across Europe, which means I want to have the power to determine the rules for the whole EU. I then create a report projecting that we could increase our tax revenue if we pass the law to give me more power. I have some thoughts. 1) The projected windfall from this CCCTB will not materialize... if we take history as a indicator. When ever does compan…

> Competition, including taxes, is great for Europeans. If we study history we see that competition is one of the components that resulted in the dominance of the west. (see Civilization: Is the West History?

I don't know. Competition for making the best science, technology, music, literature, food, ... seems different to me than just giving big corporations clever ways to avoid paying taxes for funding education, social security, infrastructure, ...

Or, if that kind of competition is so positive, is the US tech sector doomed because it does not give enough leverage for google and facebook to avoid paying taxes there?

Re: EU lost up to €5.4B in tax revenues from Google, Facebook: report

#35

Post by DannyBee »

Oletros wrote: post #11
DVassallo wrote: post #2

I wonder how much tax revenue the EU would have lost if Google and Facebook didn't exist.

I wonder how much revenue and profit would have lost Google and Facebook if they didn't exist in the EU

This is pretty dangerous thinking. The EU only has half a billion people. Thus, the truth is: Over time, these companies will make infinitely more from developing nations outside of the EU than they would from the EU. especially if the EU is taxing them heavily.

Additionally, even if you say "don't care, if they leave we'll just build our own companies", now you are hamstringing the global growth of those companies.

(I'm just going to assume the companies that leave are not going to put your homegrown companies and people at a very serious technological disadvantage, which they might)

This is of course, why the EU wants everyone on the bus.

Re: EU lost up to €5.4B in tax revenues from Google, Facebook: report

#36

Post by sddfd »

DannyBee wrote: post #31

"This resulted in estimated revenue losses for EU states, other than Ireland, of between 51 and 54 billion euros between 2013 and 2015, the report concluded." So if i understand this right, this is basically: the EU didn't really lose anything, since ireland is in the EU, but the other states would have gotten more in total if they weren't allowed to do this? My other understanding is that the tax laws of all the EU…

Not really. Ireland has some deals going with several digital multinationals.

The guardian writes:

"Google pays €47m in tax in Ireland on €22bn sales revenue"

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/nov/04/google-pays...

Re: EU lost up to €5.4B in tax revenues from Google, Facebook: report

#37

Post by qxmat »

DVassallo wrote: post #2

I wonder how much tax revenue the EU would have lost if Google and Facebook didn't exist.

Large tech companies employ hollywood accounting techniques to continually reinvest surplus revenue. In doing so they rarely post any significant profit, depriving the taxmax of corporation tax.

This 'reinvestment' is used to compete and drive profitable competitors out of business. This is an unfair practice. The result - no profitable companies, smaller taxable base and nothing for the taxman to collect.

The bigger the juggernaut, the more influence they have on the taxman ("but we're contributing to pay/income/property taxes - surely you don't want us to relocate abroad"). Large multinationals use their corrupting influence to strike sweetheart deals and use these deal-made tax savings to abuse the market even more.

Re: EU lost up to €5.4B in tax revenues from Google, Facebook: report

#38

Post by Iv »

DannyBee wrote: post #31

"This resulted in estimated revenue losses for EU states, other than Ireland, of between 51 and 54 billion euros between 2013 and 2015, the report concluded." So if i understand this right, this is basically: the EU didn't really lose anything, since ireland is in the EU, but the other states would have gotten more in total if they weren't allowed to do this? My other understanding is that the tax laws of all the EU…

There is a movement calling for tax harmonization in EU. I think this is a "what-if" scenario. "What if there were no internal competition between EU state to make a race to the bottom in terms of tax on profits?"

Re: EU lost up to €5.4B in tax revenues from Google, Facebook: report

#39

Post by wheresvic1 »

DannyBee wrote: post #31

"This resulted in estimated revenue losses for EU states, other than Ireland, of between 51 and 54 billion euros between 2013 and 2015, the report concluded." So if i understand this right, this is basically: the EU didn't really lose anything, since ireland is in the EU, but the other states would have gotten more in total if they weren't allowed to do this? My other understanding is that the tax laws of all the EU…

Yes your analysis is correct - this would be a what if scenario

Re: EU lost up to €5.4B in tax revenues from Google, Facebook: report

#40

Post by Iv »

SilentCrossing wrote: post #27

So I want to implement Common Consolidated Corporate Tax Base CCCTB across Europe, which means I want to have the power to determine the rules for the whole EU. I then create a report projecting that we could increase our tax revenue if we pass the law to give me more power. I have some thoughts. 1) The projected windfall from this CCCTB will not materialize... if we take history as a indicator. When ever does compan…

Well you can see that as an act of competition between Brussels and the tax havens if you want to frame every human progress in terms of competition between actors.
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