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EFF, ACLU Sue Over Warrantless Phone, Laptop Searches at U.S. Border

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Re: EFF, ACLU Sue Over Warrantless Phone, Laptop Searches at U.S. Border

#41

Post by adekok »

jetti wrote: post #34
ironix wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I like to think of it in terms of house keys. It's one thing if a border guard inspects your house key you brought along, analyzes for dangerous substances, drugs, etc. It's another if they clone that key and have someone drive out to inspect your house with it. To me, your house in this scenario is your entire collection of private data accessible online / remotely (finances, taxes, possibly the private data of othe…

"possibly even portals to HIPAA/other PII data of a more commercial nature)." You bring up a good point about HIPAA. I work in health care and we are allowed to keep a work email client on our phone provided that we keep control of our phone at all time (to keep PHI/HIPAA info safe). A border agent searching through my phone could be considered a HIPAA violation and would have to be reported. Not sure if anything wou…

One interpretation is that you're responsible for someone else breaking the law. If it's a violation, then the border guard committed the violation.

Another interpretation is that you cannot possible obey the law. If the border guard has the legal right to demand access to the HIPAA protected data, and you can't legally give him access... then the law enforcement officials are forcing you to break the law.

With no punishment for them, of course.

There's one set of rules for normal people, and another for law enforcement. How does this keep me safe?

Re: EFF, ACLU Sue Over Warrantless Phone, Laptop Searches at U.S. Border

#42

Post by macintux »

adekok wrote: post #39
derefr wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Another thing that contains all those same things is "your brain." It's harder to get the facts out of it, but those TSA interview rooms represent an attempt. If that is allowed, then I don't see what's better/worse about searching your digital exobrain instead. Either way, you're handing over "you" on a silver platter.

Answer one: speed Assuming you have perfect recall, and answer all of their questions truthfully, it will still take time for them to troll through all of your memories and actions. They can do the same with a telephone / laptop in minutes. Answer two: perfect recall You can't recall everything perfectly, and you don't write everything down. So after a while, they won't have anything to go on. "What did you do in Tha…

You can plead the 5th. Your phone cannot.

Re: EFF, ACLU Sue Over Warrantless Phone, Laptop Searches at U.S. Border

#43

Post by natch »

abtinf wrote: post #25
aey wrote: post #4

Donate to the eff. They will send you an awesome hoodie.

A few years ago, I considered starting regular donations to the EFF. Unfortunately, I did not realize they had taken pro position on state intervention and control of the Internet, a concept generally described with the orwellian phrase "net neutrality." This position directly contradicts much of the their advocacy that I wanted to support.

I am glad you commented, so that others could rebut your misguided position.

It's not usually kosher to comment on voting here, but I think in this case it's worth making an exception to help keep you readable: I un-did my downvote of you because I hope that others who, out of innocent ignorance perhaps, currently share your position, will be able to read your comment (I don't want you to go to full invisibility) and then read and consider the responses to it.

I would advise anyone who agrees with this guy (abtinf) to really think it through a bit. The "regulation is bad therefore ALL regulation is bad" trap is easy to fall into. Even if you are a strict libertarian, net neutrality is a case where regulation is stopping really bad things from happening, and, though it sounds paradoxical, enabling MORE freedom, not less.

Re: EFF, ACLU Sue Over Warrantless Phone, Laptop Searches at U.S. Border

#44

Post by tryingagainbro »

ironix wrote: post #38

I'm going on a trip to Canada within the next month, from the US, as a US citizen. I want to be let into Canada without issue, so am taking a burner smartphone connected to a non-critical gmail account that is plausibly-maybe my "real" personal one. But not really. The maximum threat to me is detention, or more likely, refused entry. If I am asked to unlock the device, I will. Crossing back into the US, I am less con…

>> The maximum threat to me is semi-indefinite detention

Thanks for willing to take one for the team but be prepared to be put on a "troublemaker" list and be harassed, time and time again at border crossings.

Re: EFF, ACLU Sue Over Warrantless Phone, Laptop Searches at U.S. Border

#45

Post by ironix »

tryingagainbro wrote: post #44
ironix wrote: post #38

I'm going on a trip to Canada within the next month, from the US, as a US citizen. I want to be let into Canada without issue, so am taking a burner smartphone connected to a non-critical gmail account that is plausibly-maybe my "real" personal one. But not really. The maximum threat to me is detention, or more likely, refused entry. If I am asked to unlock the device, I will. Crossing back into the US, I am less con…

>> The maximum threat to me is semi-indefinite detention Thanks for willing to take one for the team but be prepared to be put on a "troublemaker" list and be harassed, time and time again at border crossings.

I am curious, is it possible that countries / regions share such lists? i.e. would refusing to comply with a digital search at the US border possibly affect me in EU?

Re: EFF, ACLU Sue Over Warrantless Phone, Laptop Searches at U.S. Border

#46

Post by iamatworknow »

ironix wrote: post #38

I'm going on a trip to Canada within the next month, from the US, as a US citizen. I want to be let into Canada without issue, so am taking a burner smartphone connected to a non-critical gmail account that is plausibly-maybe my "real" personal one. But not really. The maximum threat to me is detention, or more likely, refused entry. If I am asked to unlock the device, I will. Crossing back into the US, I am less con…

>Does anyone else have any tips/tricks/ideas here?

The trick is to not worry about it so much. In fact, I'd say that worrying and looking nervous would make it more likely that you would be searched.

I live on the US/Canadian border (on the US side) and go over probably 2 or 3 times per month. I regularly drive from New York state to Ottawa (going through Canadian customs), then fly into the US (through US customs) and then back again through Canada (Canadian customs again) driving home to the US (US customs again) with no problems. It's closer than the nearest commercial airport to me in the US and even with the customs delay, much more convenient. I also just go over to have fun in Ottawa and Montreal regularly.

My vehicle has been searched 3 times in probably 6 years. My phone has always stayed with me, in my pocket, un-searched.

I have only ever personally heard of one case of someone having their electronics searched, and the extent of the search was Canadian customs using the Windows search to look for files with "boy" or "girl" in the filename -- presumably looking for child porn.

To be clear, I'm not saying this doesn't ever happen, or that it will 100% never happen to you, but the chances are very, very slim that they'll even ask you more than a few questions, let alone do any sort of search. Your mileage may vary, of course.

Re: EFF, ACLU Sue Over Warrantless Phone, Laptop Searches at U.S. Border

#47

Post by jimktrains2 »

SerLava wrote: post #11
rando0o0o0o0o wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Could they make the argument that they're checking for malicious software/viruses/other bad stuff that could be a threat to Americans?

I mean, not really unless they open it up and run antivirus software on it.

And even then it would only find things they already know exist, which would mean they're already in the country more than likely.

Re: EFF, ACLU Sue Over Warrantless Phone, Laptop Searches at U.S. Border

#48

Post by 5ilv3r »

iamatworknow wrote: post #46
ironix wrote: post #38

I'm going on a trip to Canada within the next month, from the US, as a US citizen. I want to be let into Canada without issue, so am taking a burner smartphone connected to a non-critical gmail account that is plausibly-maybe my "real" personal one. But not really. The maximum threat to me is detention, or more likely, refused entry. If I am asked to unlock the device, I will. Crossing back into the US, I am less con…

>Does anyone else have any tips/tricks/ideas here? The trick is to not worry about it so much. In fact, I'd say that worrying and looking nervous would make it more likely that you would be searched. I live on the US/Canadian border (on the US side) and go over probably 2 or 3 times per month. I regularly drive from New York state to Ottawa (going through Canadian customs), then fly into the US (through US customs) a…

Looking at the list of people represented, I'm lead to believe there is a large chance of racial profiling being involved.

Re: EFF, ACLU Sue Over Warrantless Phone, Laptop Searches at U.S. Border

#49

Post by iamatworknow »

iamatworknow wrote: post #46
ironix wrote: post #38

I'm going on a trip to Canada within the next month, from the US, as a US citizen. I want to be let into Canada without issue, so am taking a burner smartphone connected to a non-critical gmail account that is plausibly-maybe my "real" personal one. But not really. The maximum threat to me is detention, or more likely, refused entry. If I am asked to unlock the device, I will. Crossing back into the US, I am less con…

>Does anyone else have any tips/tricks/ideas here? The trick is to not worry about it so much. In fact, I'd say that worrying and looking nervous would make it more likely that you would be searched. I live on the US/Canadian border (on the US side) and go over probably 2 or 3 times per month. I regularly drive from New York state to Ottawa (going through Canadian customs), then fly into the US (through US customs) a…

To perhaps back my point up even further, look at the link that the EFF posted showing CBP's data:

https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/national-media-release/cbp-rele...

189,594,422 people processed at the US border between October 2016 and March 2017 with 14,993 electronics searches.

0.008% of people processed had electronics searched.

Re: EFF, ACLU Sue Over Warrantless Phone, Laptop Searches at U.S. Border

#50

Post by nrb »

ironix wrote: post #45
tryingagainbro wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> The maximum threat to me is semi-indefinite detention Thanks for willing to take one for the team but be prepared to be put on a "troublemaker" list and be harassed, time and time again at border crossings.

I am curious, is it possible that countries / regions share such lists? i.e. would refusing to comply with a digital search at the US border possibly affect me in EU?

Given the intelligence alliances that we know exist and the likely many that we aren't aware of, it's not only possible but probable.
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