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Mathematicians Measure Infinities, Find They’re Equal

quantamagazine.org

41–50 of 170 posts

Re: Mathematicians Measure Infinities, Find They’re Equal

#41

I did not know that this was an unsolved problem. It is quite paradoxical. You can map the subset of rational numbers in the range [0, 1) to the set of natural numbers, so there are an infinite number of disjoint subsets of the rational numbers that map to the natural numbers. Intuitively a 2nd dimension of infinity should be bigger, but the count of a set is defined to be one dimensional regardless of the dimensiona…

Another thing which has bothered me in the past was that a set of 2-tuple integers could be mapped by a set of 1-tuple integers, seemingly without any information loss.

Re: Mathematicians Measure Infinities, Find They’re Equal

#42
post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So if I understand you correctly, you find it unconvincing, and therefore generations of mathematicians who study these things must all be wrong. Perhaps you simply don't understand the argument in detail, and are relying on your intuition. And perhaps your intuition is faulty. Which seems more likely? So let me try to provide a better insight for you. Consider the collection of natural numbers, including 0. Call it…

It is possible. The inverse of m is called q. The function q takes an infinite sequence of coin flips and one by one changes every heads to 1 and every tails to 0. The infinite string of zeros and ones is then prepended with a 1 and interpreted as a transfinite natural number in binary notation. This will not take forever because each change will only take half as long as the previous one. A transfinite natural numbe…

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Re: Mathematicians Measure Infinities, Find They’re Equal

#43

I did not know that this was an unsolved problem. It is quite paradoxical. You can map the subset of rational numbers in the range [0, 1) to the set of natural numbers, so there are an infinite number of disjoint subsets of the rational numbers that map to the natural numbers. Intuitively a 2nd dimension of infinity should be bigger, but the count of a set is defined to be one dimensional regardless of the dimensiona…

Another thing which has bothered me in the past was that a set of 2-tuple integers could be mapped by a set of 1-tuple integers, seemingly without any information loss.

See Cantor's diagonalization argument for exactly how to do this mapping.

Re: Mathematicians Measure Infinities, Find They’re Equal

#44

I did not know that this was an unsolved problem. It is quite paradoxical. You can map the subset of rational numbers in the range [0, 1) to the set of natural numbers, so there are an infinite number of disjoint subsets of the rational numbers that map to the natural numbers. Intuitively a 2nd dimension of infinity should be bigger, but the count of a set is defined to be one dimensional regardless of the dimensiona…

How? Which real number maps to the natural number 42?

Re: Mathematicians Measure Infinities, Find They’re Equal

#45

I did not know that this was an unsolved problem. It is quite paradoxical. You can map the subset of rational numbers in the range [0, 1) to the set of natural numbers, so there are an infinite number of disjoint subsets of the rational numbers that map to the natural numbers. Intuitively a 2nd dimension of infinity should be bigger, but the count of a set is defined to be one dimensional regardless of the dimensiona…

Actually if you meant to say that the real numbers in [0,1) map bijectively to the set of natural numbers, that is incorrect.

See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unit_interval

under the section "Cardinality".

Re: Mathematicians Measure Infinities, Find They’re Equal

#46
I am having trouble grasping the result.

As far as I understand it, any proof of any result has to be with respect to some axiom system. The continuum hypothesis result is that you cannot prove a infinity exists between the naturals and the real numbers under the usual axiom system A.

How that was proved, I don't know, and I also don't know what axiom system was used in that proof. If the axiom system was also A, then it seems to me that it follows we cannot have pSo the axiom system used to prove that "the continuum hypothesis is unsolvable in A" must be a larger system A+.

I think in A+ we again have p=t. The question this paper answers is whether we can prove "you cannot prove p=t using A" or "you can prove p=t using A". The latter means there is a straight up proof.

Any people who really know this stuff can you comment if I got the gist right?

Re: Mathematicians Measure Infinities, Find They’re Equal

#47

I did not know that this was an unsolved problem. It is quite paradoxical. You can map the subset of rational numbers in the range [0, 1) to the set of natural numbers, so there are an infinite number of disjoint subsets of the rational numbers that map to the natural numbers. Intuitively a 2nd dimension of infinity should be bigger, but the count of a set is defined to be one dimensional regardless of the dimensiona…

Another thing which has bothered me in the past was that a set of 2-tuple integers could be mapped by a set of 1-tuple integers, seemingly without any information loss.

I am not sure if you have heard of them, but space-filling curves are a way to demonstrate this. This is a great video on the Hilbert curve https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3s7h2MHQtxc

Re: Mathematicians Measure Infinities, Find They’re Equal

#48
post #3

I find Cantor's diagonal argument unconvincing. The claim is that there are more real numbers in the range from zero to one than there are natural numbers. To see that this is false simply realize that you don't actually have to write a decimal point to specify the real numbers in this range. Without the decimal point these real numbers just become natural numbers. Can a rational person believe that there are infinit…

I think I figured it out: you must be one of the aliens predicted by the downward Löwenheim–Skolem theorem!

If we could have a model of set theory (a set1 of all set2s, where a set1 is a set in our set theory and a set2 a modeled set, like an interpreter), which is necessarily infinitely large, then the downward Löwenheim–Skolem theorem implies there is a model that is only countably infinite. There is a model of the real numbers in there, so from our point of view, the real numbers are countable! Though from the model's point of view, Cantor's diagonal argument still works, and they are not countable!

My theory is that you are looking at our real numbers and thinking they are countable because you have a much more powerful set of natural numbers than the rest of us. Unfortunately for you, your bijection between our reals and your naturals does not carry over to our set theory. You should find, however, that you do not have a bijection between your reals and your naturals.

One problem with this is that Gödel's incompleteness theorem implies that if we ever had a model and could prove it was a model, then set theory would be inconsistent.

More seriously, Cantor's argument as usually given is not Cantor's original argument. He originally did something involving nested closed intervals, but it was simplified to listing out the digit expansions of a list of real numbers.

I am partial to the following argument: suppose there were an invertible function f between N and infinite sequences of 0's and 1's. The type of f is written N -> (N -> Bool) since an infinite sequence of 0's and 1's is a function from N to {0,1}. Let g(n)=not f(n)(n). This is a function N -> Bool. Since f is invertible, let finv be the inverse f : (N -> Bool) -> N. Then finv(g) is a natural number. Plug this into g:

    g(finv(g)) = not f(finv(g))(finv(g))
               = not g(finv(g))
Uh oh, the value of g at finv(g) is not whatever its value is. Something must be wrong: it could be there is no set of natural numbers or booleans (unlikely), that g is not definable (but it is a simple expression of f, and not even recursive; unlikely), or that there is no such function f (this is the only assumption remaining, so there must not have been an f that is a bijection).

Notice there was nothing special about N in this argument. It could have been a finite set, an infinite set, or even the real numbers, and we still would have concluded there is some value at which g is not its own value!

It is possible to prove that there are at least as many real numbers as there are sequences N -> Bool using infinite series. It is also possible to prove there are no more real numbers than there are such sequences.

Re: Mathematicians Measure Infinities, Find They’re Equal

#49
post #18

Actual article: https://arxiv.org/pdf/1208.5424.pdf Great results within a very narrow field, which quantamagazine leverages into a clickbaity title.

Why do you think this is clickbait? The headline accurately describes the content of the article, which as far as I can tell accurately describes one result of this paper. Clickbait doesn't mean any interesting headline, it means a misleading and purely attention-grabbing headline.

Re: Mathematicians Measure Infinities, Find They’re Equal

#50

I did not know that this was an unsolved problem. It is quite paradoxical. You can map the subset of rational numbers in the range [0, 1) to the set of natural numbers, so there are an infinite number of disjoint subsets of the rational numbers that map to the natural numbers. Intuitively a 2nd dimension of infinity should be bigger, but the count of a set is defined to be one dimensional regardless of the dimensiona…

No, this is incorrect. You can map the set of rational numbers to the set of natural numbers. The set of reals in that range is shown to be uncountably infinite by Cantor diagonalization.

https://www.reddit.com/r/explainlikeimfive/comments/1r5aya/e...

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