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Java EE Is Moving to the Eclipse Foundation

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Re: Java EE Is Moving to the Eclipse Foundation

#51

Post by cjsuk »

tannhaeuser wrote: post #49
cjsuk wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot of enterprise companies aren't buying in JS frameworks because the velocity of those frameworks is too fast. I kind of agree. When you have 50,000 desktops, a 6 month lead dragging a pile of apps over to a new browser is a nightmare scenario. All it takes is one app which the vendor doesn't give a shit about and one internal app deprecating an IE version used by 50 users due to a JS framework change in a branch…

Maybe for those customers it might make sense to donate to the Eclipse foundation to keep JSF etc. alive and to keep Java-only devs afloat? But then maintenance of J2EE has ceased because it's not economically feasible.

It probably would but it won't happen. It's difficult getting anything like that through the layers of purchasing hell.

If they provided a web site with pictures of boxes of software for min $2000 that never arrived and didn't do anything it might work better. The moment someone says "donate" the bean counters start sharpening their pitchforks.

Re: Java EE Is Moving to the Eclipse Foundation

#52

Post by pjmlp »

tannhaeuser wrote: post #42
pjmlp wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most enterprise shops do care about JSF. I know of many greenfield projects using it, mainly PrimeFaces.

They do for legacy apps only, though, since JSP, JSF and everything on top of it, such as portlets and faces component libs, has been obsolete for many years now. Handling UI state on the server just doesn't make any technical sense when there are React, Angular and Co as mainstream GUI kits. I guess there are still those shops maintaining intranet apps, and for whom it is a priority that everything is 100% Java, or…

What part of greenfield projects haven't you understood?!

Fads come and go, Java stays strong.

Many enterprise favor having mature technologies they can count on.

A responsible consultant should never advise customers adopting the cool JavaScript framework of the Month (TM), unless it is for building curriculum and write cool "We migrated to tech XXXX" blog posts.

Re: Java EE Is Moving to the Eclipse Foundation

#53

Post by pjmlp »

cjsuk wrote: post #46
tannhaeuser wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They do for legacy apps only, though, since JSP, JSF and everything on top of it, such as portlets and faces component libs, has been obsolete for many years now. Handling UI state on the server just doesn't make any technical sense when there are React, Angular and Co as mainstream GUI kits. I guess there are still those shops maintaining intranet apps, and for whom it is a priority that everything is 100% Java, or…

A lot of enterprise companies aren't buying in JS frameworks because the velocity of those frameworks is too fast. I kind of agree. When you have 50,000 desktops, a 6 month lead dragging a pile of apps over to a new browser is a nightmare scenario. All it takes is one app which the vendor doesn't give a shit about and one internal app deprecating an IE version used by 50 users due to a JS framework change in a branch…

We have customers were using Chrome is a security risk, because they cannot control its deployments like on FF, IE and Edge.

Re: Java EE Is Moving to the Eclipse Foundation

#54

Post by oweiler »

strictfp wrote: post #41
exabrial wrote: post #40

This is awesome. CDI, JAXRS, JPA, JTA, and JMS are brilliant technologies but are held down by the weight of legacy technologies. Maybe we can finally see Java EE based solely on CDI, which would kick every platform out of the water. Scopes take dependency injection to the next level and finally fulfills the promise of modular, testable, reusable code.

You really drank the coolaid I can see. I think dependency injection frameworks are a bad idea in general, and it seems as if the current trend goes against using them. Also I won't be expecting much good to happen after Eclipse takes over, they tend to complect implementation and not really drive development IMO.

As long as you program in Java DI is the best option you have if you want your code to be unit-testable.

Re: Java EE Is Moving to the Eclipse Foundation

#55

Post by cjsuk »

pjmlp wrote: post #53
cjsuk wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot of enterprise companies aren't buying in JS frameworks because the velocity of those frameworks is too fast. I kind of agree. When you have 50,000 desktops, a 6 month lead dragging a pile of apps over to a new browser is a nightmare scenario. All it takes is one app which the vendor doesn't give a shit about and one internal app deprecating an IE version used by 50 users due to a JS framework change in a branch…

We have customers were using Chrome is a security risk, because they cannot control its deployments like on FF, IE and Edge.

Fortunately that excuse is no longer valid as they have GPO templates, MSI packages, the lot: https://support.google.com/chrome/a/answer/7358568

Re: Java EE Is Moving to the Eclipse Foundation

#56

Post by lockje »

dfabulich wrote: post #47

My impression is that nobody uses any of the code shipped in Java EE. People use Servlet containers (Tomcat and JBoss) but the problems you can solve with EJB, JSF, JPA, JMS, etc. are all better solved with open source libraries, e.g. Guice, Spring, and Hibernate.

Many of the open source libraries are concrete implementations of the Java EE specs. Hibernate uses JPA, GUICE standarized the CDI implementation (http://googlecode.blogspot.nl/2009/05/javaxinjectinject.html). And many of the technologies offered by Java EE are standarizations of concepts. This is highly valueable for reuseability and not having 10 libraries completely reinventing the wheel.

Re: Java EE Is Moving to the Eclipse Foundation

#57

Post by skocznymroczny »

topspin wrote: post #39
needusername wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nope, this is Oracle stop caring about Java EE. They are not doing this for Java SE as long as they are caring about Java SE. I also doubt IBM still cares about Java EE. Their last JSR (Batch/JSR-352) was particularly disgusting and seems to be abandoned already.

"JSR (Batch/JSR-352) was particularly disgusting" Good grief. Another mountain of XML programming. It's like the last 10+ years of software engineering never happened. I wonder how many half completed JSR-352 implementations will emerge.

Just replacing XML with JSON doesn't make anything modern.

Re: Java EE Is Moving to the Eclipse Foundation

#58

Post by saiya-jin »

dfabulich wrote: post #47

My impression is that nobody uses any of the code shipped in Java EE. People use Servlet containers (Tomcat and JBoss) but the problems you can solve with EJB, JSF, JPA, JMS, etc. are all better solved with open source libraries, e.g. Guice, Spring, and Hibernate.

With web stack & EJB i agree, but JMS is still used heavily ie in finance (where I currently work). In situations where you need 100% reliable and trackable message delivery with various load balancing/failover modes, and don't care that much about perfromance (ie max tens of messages/s). Which is good enough for most system integrations these days.

Direct peer-to-peer connectivity (ie SOAP or REST) has few issues, ie when taget is down due to crash/patching, you only get 400/500/timeout and client has to be smart enough to retry later or handle it in other ways. Cluster can solve few of these, but not all of them. What we face regularly - weekend patching where consumers are down for 10 hours easily due to external constraints.

What I want to say - for reliable mesasging, you don't want direct connectivity, rather than central servers that can withstand any situation, and clients don't have to be too smart. Be it some ActiveMQ or Websphere MQ cluster or anything else. JMS is battle-proven, you can have TSL over it and support for it is huge.

Re: Java EE Is Moving to the Eclipse Foundation

#59

Post by znpy »

skocznymroczny wrote: post #57
topspin wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"JSR (Batch/JSR-352) was particularly disgusting" Good grief. Another mountain of XML programming. It's like the last 10+ years of software engineering never happened. I wonder how many half completed JSR-352 implementations will emerge.

Just replacing XML with JSON doesn't make anything modern.

Someone is finally saying this.

Plus, there is a ton of things that json can't do or isn't supposed to do (things like defining a grammar, xpath, xquery, xslt and a lot more)

Re: Java EE Is Moving to the Eclipse Foundation

#60

Post by znpy »

tannhaeuser wrote: post #42
pjmlp wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most enterprise shops do care about JSF. I know of many greenfield projects using it, mainly PrimeFaces.

They do for legacy apps only, though, since JSP, JSF and everything on top of it, such as portlets and faces component libs, has been obsolete for many years now. Handling UI state on the server just doesn't make any technical sense when there are React, Angular and Co as mainstream GUI kits. I guess there are still those shops maintaining intranet apps, and for whom it is a priority that everything is 100% Java, or…

A lot of enterprises like to have a solid runtime with proper multi-threading, a comprehensive library set and a stable, well-defined API.

Ask yourself why of all the languages and runtime, it's mostly Java running the enterprise world.

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