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Betting on the Web – Why I Build PWAs

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Re: Betting on the Web – Why I Build PWAs

#111

Post by goatlover »

david-cako wrote: post #101
otakucode wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well there's also some other factors I would think... as soon as you want that fancy web app of yours to convert a 10GB video file you're going to be sad. Or if you want to have control of your data. Or if you don't want someone ELSE to have control of your data. Or if you don't want them listening to everything you say, profiling everything you do, and lacing everything with advertising... Much is done remotely whic…

>There's no reason a similar system couldn't be built to deliver platform-native applications I'm very into the idea of HTML/CSS/JS on the desktop (and by extension, things like react native), even if simply as a frontend to a heavier duty application running on localhost. I feel like the OSs should be shipping runtimes for it instead of having insane 120MB hello world electron apps. Web apps also don't necessarily m…

> I'm very into the idea of HTML/CSS/JS on the desktop

Why? there are better languages, platforms and layout engines. HTML/CSS/JS was meant to be a document markup sharing platform, not a rich application one. Use the best tool for the job.

Re: Betting on the Web – Why I Build PWAs

#112

Post by honestlyreally »

jimktrains2 wrote: post #37
jawns wrote: post #3

So it sounds like PWAs now make this true: > You don't have to create a native app because PWAs now offer all the functionality of a native app. That's cool. But _this_ has been true for a while: > You don't have to create a native app because a mobile-friendly website offers all the functionality you need. I use (reluctantly) a bunch of apps that really should be just websites. They don't make use of my phone's came…

> > You don't have to create a native app because PWAs now offer all the functionality of a native app. I didn't think you could do arbitrary network or disk I/O. The sandbox is really, really nice for many applications, but PWAs aren't suitable for all native applications.

My thoughts exactly, wondering why so many here are saying they are equivalent? PWA disk usage has tiny limits.

For the curious: https://developers.google.com/web/fundamentals/instant-and-o...

Re: Betting on the Web – Why I Build PWAs

#113

Post by goatlover »

zaptheimpaler wrote: post #6
criddell wrote: post #2

The author spends some time talking about platform stability as a big part of why web apps are great. But for web apps, is the platform actually stable? I run some applications on my PC that are older than the iPhone and they work just fine. Will the Starbucks web app still work a decade from now? Is any non-trivial web app ever actually done ?

The platform has been stable for a while now. 20 year old web pages still render just fine. Its exceptionally backward compatible. Web apps being "done/not-done" is a different question altogether, and it depends on the ever-changing goals of the app/business behind it.

Doe 20 year old web apps using java applets or framesets and Netscape 4 DOM still render just fine?

Re: Betting on the Web – Why I Build PWAs

#114

Post by badsectoracula »

osrec wrote: post #59

This is something I feel quite strongly about, and I too favour PWAs. I think native apps have their place for now, as a few key APIs are not fully exposed via browsers yet, but the API landscape continues to improve. Apple has even started dev on service workers for Safari, and their IndexedDB implementation is not as buggy as it used to be. If I'm honest, apps never really made sense to me; they seem to be part of…

> ... seems to have taken a step backward with mobile apps, and replaced with an endless need for vendor lock in. It's great for business, but as a user, it feels really restrictive. As a developer, it's not great either.

But isn't using a web app that stores its data to a remote server and handles upgrades a method of vendor (in this case developer) lock in? As a user you are 100% reliant on the developer, both for your data but also in their mercy when it comes to upgrades (imagine developers changing how their UI works to a way you dislike - my aunt every now and then calls me because something went wrong but what really went wrong was Google making slight changes to Gmail or the Google home page that confused her - or, even worse, starting to require more resources than your computer can handle but you cannot do something as simple - with native apps - as to just keep using the older version).

Re: Betting on the Web – Why I Build PWAs

#115

Post by flukus »

Andrex wrote: post #72
millstone wrote: post #22

> It is now possible to build PWAs that are indistinguishable from their native counter parts It's not now possible, but even if it were, it would only be because the native app does not in fact use native components. The Starbucks app already doesn't feel native, with its custom casing, fonts, navigation and behaviors.

It's reasonably doable to get a PWA looking and feeling like a native Android app if you opt to use Material.io or Polymer's Paper Elements. Some behavior isn't 1:1 though, which can be frustrating.

What about iOS and others? Are we going to have to make multi versions of an app to make them look native?

For that matter, what does a native android app look like? I've never seen any consistency between apps at all, let alone the sort of consistency you can get with gnome, KDE or older windows.

Re: Betting on the Web – Why I Build PWAs

#116

Post by hutzlibu »

"4. PWAs everywhere"

Yeah, yeah, I read that many times while I researched about it. But everywhere seams to mean today, everywhere except for the old-school Desktop (!)

I mean I understand, that the implementation and development of a new standard takes time and since mobile is hip, everyone focus there first. Makes sense. But I feel a bit ridicouled(and annoyed) with all the PWA, don't worry about plattform talk - and then there are no signs at all, that the traditional desktop is a target in the near future, if it is at all. At least I could not find further informations.

https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/Manifest

And I am building a webapp, which does a bit more than turning on a lightbulb, so I also like it to run on a real PC. To work with it. With a screen and keyboard - and yes, whenever I want, easily switch to mobile and still be able to work with it, ... this is what would make me excited. True plattform-independence, where I don't have to worry about clumsy plattform details. What I have to worry about is adjusting to the screensize, etc. and if there is a keyboard, mouse, gps, device orientation, battery maybe(so the app knows to save urgent data, before, the power goes off), pressure sensitive pen, multitouch, etc. etc.

I'd like to have all this information and then present the user the best UI I can master with the given conditions and don't worry what happens behind the scene.

I just target the WebAPI's.

And they get more and more powerful. Mozilla tried to build and market their OS around them, which failed comercially, but helped the basic idea a lot. And this basic idea I like because of the simplicity. So I am excited and looking forward for further improvements ... but please don't forget the desktop as a plattform!

Re: Betting on the Web – Why I Build PWAs

#117

Post by peatmoss »

msla wrote: post #36
e12e wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> look up when the next bus is coming That's ridiculous argument against offline use - bus schedules are small enough data that we print them out and carry them in our pockets. Sure, if the bus company socks, it might be nice to know about changes due to roadwork, real-time updates (ie look up the next bus via it's gps location and speed) - but doing off-line route planning would be a great feature...

In Missoula, Montana, where I live, the Mountain Line app shows you where every individual bus on a given route is, and computes ETA to a selected bus stop. I'm pretty sure that's common functionality. (To be honest, the Mountain Line is very punctual, so I could likely do just fine with just a printed schedule.)

Displaying the live AVL data for all Missoula busses is not too bad. In Seattle where I currently live, not so much. Thus, most of our apps here tend to give arrival times of busses with nearby stops.

Fun aside: my dad drove for the Mountain Line many years ago. I rescued one of his 1970s yellow shirts with the embroidered logo patch a while back.

Re: Betting on the Web – Why I Build PWAs

#119

Post by kooshball »

djrogers wrote: post #11

I think one of the uphill battles you're going to have to fight with PWAs is end-user habit. If Joe consumer is looking for a great way to see a weather forecast he's going to look for an app. Jane wants to play podcasts - she's looking for an app. Ezra wants a Jewish calendar - app store. 99 times out of a hundred for the smartphone carrying crowd, the app store has become a replacement for google searches when it c…

I think you're wrong about the uphill battle part. Most users don't bother with new apps at all.

https://www.recode.net/2016/9/16/12933780/average-app-downlo...

Keep in mind this is in the US. People in developing countries, on older and slower devices with limited bandwidth, are even less likely to download new apps.

Re: Betting on the Web – Why I Build PWAs

#120

Post by robterrin »

rixed wrote: post #53
jawns wrote: post #3

So it sounds like PWAs now make this true: > You don't have to create a native app because PWAs now offer all the functionality of a native app. That's cool. But _this_ has been true for a while: > You don't have to create a native app because a mobile-friendly website offers all the functionality you need. I use (reluctantly) a bunch of apps that really should be just websites. They don't make use of my phone's came…

I've always naively assumed that apps were given preference because they are better at gathering info about the user (can get location more easily for instance, can phone home whenever...) and better at displaying ads (no Adblock there), and therefore I'm surprised nobody evokes this. Don't you think it's at least partly true?

Surprised I didn't find this comment up higher. This is my first thought every time. Good observation!
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