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Friends Are Genetically Similar (2014)

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Re: Friends Are Genetically Similar (2014)

#51

Post by ebfd »

flatline wrote: post #23
fatjokes wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I guess my next question would be are genetically people that have genetic similarities more likely to have similar interests. If that is the case, it would lead to the politically uncomfortable question of different genders or ethnic groups being more likely to have particular interests.

I think it's trivially obvious that they do? The uncomfortable questions are whether people are genetically predisposed to, or naturally have a greater aptitude for, some particular interest, particularly on racial or gender lines. For many physical activities this is a settled question for gender, but that's about all we know. Even this alone is not necessarily controversial, the problem as we've seen time and again…

It would, however, mean that the overrepresentation of East Asians among life outcomes that correlate with aptitude in math is not necessarily the result of them oppressing other groups.

Re: Friends Are Genetically Similar (2014)

#52

Post by ebfd »

danans wrote: post #31
fatjokes wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I guess my next question would be are genetically people that have genetic similarities more likely to have similar interests. If that is the case, it would lead to the politically uncomfortable question of different genders or ethnic groups being more likely to have particular interests.

The shared interest groups most people are involved in in their regular lives are far too small to make any extrapolation to the larger population. Also, for many human traits (i.e height), the intra-population variation is much greater than the inter-population variance, especially when controlling for the effect of environment. We have a tendency to anchor our biases on the extreme examples of any population when w…

>Also, for many human traits (i.e height), the intra-population variation is much greater than the inter-population variance, especially when controlling for the effect of environment.

All this means is that >0 members of population B have more of the trait than >0 members of population A. It doesn't at all discredit the notion that members of population A tend to have more of the trait.

Re: Friends Are Genetically Similar (2014)

#53

Post by SirensOfTitan »

jawns wrote: post #42
tosser350 wrote: post #9

People need to realize we are built on hardware that is hundreds of millions of years old. We share a similar hormonal dominance hierarchy system with fucking lobsters. You can't just say it's and expect these things to disappear. Tribalism was important for survival, trusting someone who didn't look like you could mean death and thus was selected for over long periods of time.

And then we became human and started not acting like lobsters. We have intellects, a sense of morality, and a will. Those allow us to drastically curtail what might otherwise be instinctive behaviors. I know there are some determinists who say that free will is illusory and we're as much slaves to our genetics and instincts as lobsters are. But it certainly seems as if, in practice, tribalism (at least the clear-cut…

> We have intellects, a sense of morality, and a will. Those allow us to drastically curtail what might otherwise be instinctive behaviors.

An excerpt from Julian Jaynes's 'Origin of Consciousness' comes to mind here:

> Consciousness is a much smaller part of our mental life than we are conscious of, because we cannot be conscious of what we are not conscious of. How simple that is to say; how difficult to appreciate! It is like asking a flashlight in a dark room to search around for something that does not have any light shining upon it. The flashlight, since there is light in whatever direction it turns, would have to conclude that there is light everywhere. And so consciousness can seem to pervade all mentality when actually it does not.

There exist a great deal of subconscious processes that effect behavior in ways that an 'individual' cannot necessarily perceive. Often, a person does something, then post-hoc uses narratization to fit those actions within their preexisting belief system and story of themselves. The important thing to note is that your perception of yourself is not you, and the world you perceive around you is not the world itself. Both act as very helpful mental models that help you navigate your world effectively. As with all models, however, they have holes, and the really damaging ones are the ones you're not aware you're not aware of (as you cannot even adjust for those weaknesses).

Re: Friends Are Genetically Similar (2014)

#54

Post by atapaiea »

matkoboska wrote: post #47
jawns wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And then we became human and started not acting like lobsters. We have intellects, a sense of morality, and a will. Those allow us to drastically curtail what might otherwise be instinctive behaviors. I know there are some determinists who say that free will is illusory and we're as much slaves to our genetics and instincts as lobsters are. But it certainly seems as if, in practice, tribalism (at least the clear-cut…

You are on a cocktail party. Have had a few drinks with friends. You all start talking about spiders. How they are these wonderful tiny creatures to be protected. You know, they got rid of insects and it's actually good to be above this. After all we have intellects, a sense of morality, and a will. We're not some freaking lobsters driven by phobias. And you know what? At this wonderful evening party, we all agree, t…

Or, like my father-in-law, you go and grab a paper towel, pick up the spider, and let it go outside on front lawn. I have never seen him kill a spider. And some percentage of the time, more and more with each passing year, even though I am terrified of spiders, I don't kill them because of conversations like the one you describe.

Just because some people react with their emotion doesn't mean everyone does and it doesn't mean we have to.

Re: Friends Are Genetically Similar (2014)

#55

Post by danans »

matkoboska wrote: post #47
jawns wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And then we became human and started not acting like lobsters. We have intellects, a sense of morality, and a will. Those allow us to drastically curtail what might otherwise be instinctive behaviors. I know there are some determinists who say that free will is illusory and we're as much slaves to our genetics and instincts as lobsters are. But it certainly seems as if, in practice, tribalism (at least the clear-cut…

You are on a cocktail party. Have had a few drinks with friends. You all start talking about spiders. How they are these wonderful tiny creatures to be protected. You know, they got rid of insects and it's actually good to be above this. After all we have intellects, a sense of morality, and a will. We're not some freaking lobsters driven by phobias. And you know what? At this wonderful evening party, we all agree, t…

Most serious people who talk about preserving insects and arachnids do so because these animals provide the feed-stock for other animal populations, similar to plankton in the oceans, and they are an indicator of the health of an ecosystem, not because they are taken with their appearance (although of course some people do genuinely love their appearance).

One can easily espouse something like that while not wanting a big spider scurrying around in your house. Also, plenty of people (myself included) escort such spiders outside alive instead of smashing them, not the least because I don't want to smear their guts everywhere, creating more work.

Re: Friends Are Genetically Similar (2014)

#56

Post by csomar »

matkoboska wrote: post #47
jawns wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And then we became human and started not acting like lobsters. We have intellects, a sense of morality, and a will. Those allow us to drastically curtail what might otherwise be instinctive behaviors. I know there are some determinists who say that free will is illusory and we're as much slaves to our genetics and instincts as lobsters are. But it certainly seems as if, in practice, tribalism (at least the clear-cut…

You are on a cocktail party. Have had a few drinks with friends. You all start talking about spiders. How they are these wonderful tiny creatures to be protected. You know, they got rid of insects and it's actually good to be above this. After all we have intellects, a sense of morality, and a will. We're not some freaking lobsters driven by phobias. And you know what? At this wonderful evening party, we all agree, t…

> That's why after 30 years of perfect marriage you might do stupid things when 23 year old hot blonde is sexually provoking you.

How is that not logical? Spreading your genes to healthy young women seems like a straightforward choice.

Re: Friends Are Genetically Similar (2014)

#57

Post by Real_S »

choxi wrote: post #7

> The tendency for friends to have similar genomes might result from people befriending those of similar ancestry, but the duo are confident that isn't the case. Not only did they control for the effect of population structure and ancestry, but the Framingham data is relatively homogeneous in terms of ethnicity, consisting largely of people of European descent. How did they control it? Even amongst Europeans, I imagi…

Population structure is controlled through the use of the structure as a co-factor in the analyses. They use a principal component analysis on the genotypes to estimate the structure, and then use the first few principal components (PCs) as cofactors in the analyses.

So if the European population they used consisted of half English and half French participants, then the first PC would likely divide the two. So if British or French ethnicity affected the analysis, this effect would be reduced or eliminated using just the first PC.

How many PCs should be used? Well, ten is a common number chosen. Is it enough? Probably for most studies including this one.

So ancestry and ethnicity in this type of research emerges purely from a PC analysis on the genotypes. They do not use self-reported ethnicity or any other type of common ethnic grouping. To control for population structure, self-reported ethnicity is rarely useful. Its far too unreliable. But these groupings do sometimes loosely correspond to the PCs found in the analysis, supporting the use of PC as a method to control for ethnicity.

Re: Friends Are Genetically Similar (2014)

#58

Post by nyolfen »

i found out recently that my lifelong best friend and i share a relatively uncommon paternal haplogroup, despite our families coming respectively from germany and scotland for the most part (the group is relatively prominent in frisia). anecdote, not data obviously, but i'm curious if anyone else has any similar experiences.

Re: Friends Are Genetically Similar (2014)

#59

Post by csomar »

atapaiea wrote: post #54
matkoboska wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are on a cocktail party. Have had a few drinks with friends. You all start talking about spiders. How they are these wonderful tiny creatures to be protected. You know, they got rid of insects and it's actually good to be above this. After all we have intellects, a sense of morality, and a will. We're not some freaking lobsters driven by phobias. And you know what? At this wonderful evening party, we all agree, t…

Or, like my father-in-law, you go and grab a paper towel, pick up the spider, and let it go outside on front lawn. I have never seen him kill a spider. And some percentage of the time, more and more with each passing year, even though I am terrified of spiders, I don't kill them because of conversations like the one you describe. Just because some people react with their emotion doesn't mean everyone does and it does…

This depends on your up-rising for the most part. When I was very young, there was this spider that had its house below my small desk. I grew up accustomed to these spiders and didn't allow my mother to clean them up.

Now, I don't fear spiders and also don't mind them as long as they don't wreak the place with their filaments. I was surprised when a cousin of mine was freaked out by one of them and wanted to insta-kill it.

Now if there is a bug... that's a whole different story. Even though, logically thinking, these beasts are the same.

Re: Friends Are Genetically Similar (2014)

#60

Post by mmanfrin »

nyolfen wrote: post #58

i found out recently that my lifelong best friend and i share a relatively uncommon paternal haplogroup, despite our families coming respectively from germany and scotland for the most part (the group is relatively prominent in frisia). anecdote, not data obviously, but i'm curious if anyone else has any similar experiences.

R-M405? Me too; but my paternal line hails from Venice. Seems our forebears scattered around.
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