Live data from Hacker News

The early history of HP calculators

insights.hpe.com

81–90 of 90 posts

Re: The early history of HP calculators

#81

When I started college in 1985, every Physics student had an HP41C. You were at a distinct disadvantage on an exam if you had an infix calculator. I still have my HP41CX that my dad bought me in 1985. Now I don't see any of the students using them. What happened? When I used to teach, I would write a large expression on the board and challenge students to a calculator duel -- me using my 1985 HP41CX and them using th…

The magic is the automatic saving of subexpressions on a stack. Once you got the hang of it, you would never want to go back to an infix calculator. Of course, you're comparing the HP41C to bad infix calculators, early ones that didn't support algebraic order of operations or explicit parentheses. It's worth remembering that postfix calculators exist not because they were ever the right thing to do, but because they…

I'll still beat anyone w an infix calc.

Re: The early history of HP calculators

#82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For regular notation, you just type all the characters as you read them, including parentheses. This requires less mental activity on the person, as opposed to RPN, which forces you to first parse the entire expression and identify the most nested expression and process outward from that point on.

I'm not sure about the 41C, but I have a 32SII and you don't need to process "from the inside out". When you encounter an open parenthesis, then you just push the following number onto the stack, when you encounter a close parenthesis, you just perform the relevant arithmetic operation. For the example 2 * (3 + 4) we can do this Input Stack 2 2 3 3,2 4 4,3,2 + 7,2 * 14

It works here because the expression is simple. You only have four variables on the stack (maybe more in later models that I'm not aware of) and for those, you are screwed if you just push things on the stack in reading order:

    2 * (3 + (4 + (5 + (6 + 7))
The only way to process this is to determine the most nested expression and start there:

    6 7 + 5 + 4 + 3 + 2 *
... you get the idea.

Expand this expression with multiple deeply nested parens and the limitations of RPN become very obvious.

Re: The early history of HP calculators

#83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you used his greenarrays chips? If so I'd love to hear anything you have to say on them and your Forth experience in general.

oh no, I was far removed from this kind of things, I'm a java/python coder let's say. But I recently dug into low level electronics so I hope I can put my hands on one.

Same. I've only done microcontrollers/asm in college.

Re: The early history of HP calculators

#84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure about the 41C, but I have a 32SII and you don't need to process "from the inside out". When you encounter an open parenthesis, then you just push the following number onto the stack, when you encounter a close parenthesis, you just perform the relevant arithmetic operation. For the example 2 * (3 + 4) we can do this Input Stack 2 2 3 3,2 4 4,3,2 + 7,2 * 14

It works here because the expression is simple. You only have four variables on the stack (maybe more in later models that I'm not aware of) and for those, you are screwed if you just push things on the stack in reading order: 2 * (3 + (4 + (5 + (6 + 7)) The only way to process this is to determine the most nested expression and start there: 6 7 + 5 + 4 + 3 + 2 * ... you get the idea. Expand this expression with mult…

I'm pretty sure the more recent, higher-end RPN calculators have lots more than 4 stack slots.

4 is usually enough in practice anyway. Your example is artificial.

Besides, are you sure your infix calculator will accept this deep a nesting of parentheses? The TI models that were contemporary with the early HPs certainly wouldn't!

Re: The early history of HP calculators

#85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The magic is the automatic saving of subexpressions on a stack. Once you got the hang of it, you would never want to go back to an infix calculator. Of course, you're comparing the HP41C to bad infix calculators, early ones that didn't support algebraic order of operations or explicit parentheses. It's worth remembering that postfix calculators exist not because they were ever the right thing to do, but because they…

I'll still beat anyone w an infix calc.

It would make a good demo to point to on YouTube when these debates come up, certainly.

Closest thing I can recall was the contest that pitted a texting teenager against an experienced ham radio operator with a telegraph key...

Re: The early history of HP calculators

#86
post #79
post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The 48 was quite a bit bigger than the 42s, which I think is the main downside. A bit of googling suggests the 48 contains similar features to the 42s, and probably more. It can also show the full 4 level stack - the 42s showed 2. However, you're looking for the best all-round scientific calculator (form factor restricted!) the 42s probably wins. The voyager series (including the 15 and 16) were well-made and in land…

How's the menu interface in HP calcs, is it strictly better than non-menu ones, or is it more of a usability compromise to allow packing more features? In other words, are the non-menu ones better for the subset of features they have?

I'd say the way the menus are implemented in the HP42s is more useable than trying to cram things onto buttons. For example, on the HP12c you have to remember which registers the sum and mean of x and y are - usefully it tells you on the back. The HP42s is more explicit with its soft menus.

Re: The early history of HP calculators

#87
post #71

When I started college in 1985, every Physics student had an HP41C. You were at a distinct disadvantage on an exam if you had an infix calculator. I still have my HP41CX that my dad bought me in 1985. Now I don't see any of the students using them. What happened? When I used to teach, I would write a large expression on the board and challenge students to a calculator duel -- me using my 1985 HP41CX and them using th…

>What happened? I don't get it either. Even if HP lost interest, why didn't anyone continue with RPN (patents, maybe?). I think RPN is both better for learning at school (you see intermediates, and you learn operator order), as well as general use. I love that you can just get stuck in calculating without having to worry about getting it all in the right order at first. I'd love my children to use RPN when they reach…

I love that you can just get stuck in calculating without having to worry about getting it all in the right order at first.

Even better if I don't have to worry about it at all. That's why I'm using a calculator in the first place, and not scribbling figures by hand on a piece of paper.

Re: The early history of HP calculators

#88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It works here because the expression is simple. You only have four variables on the stack (maybe more in later models that I'm not aware of) and for those, you are screwed if you just push things on the stack in reading order: 2 * (3 + (4 + (5 + (6 + 7)) The only way to process this is to determine the most nested expression and start there: 6 7 + 5 + 4 + 3 + 2 * ... you get the idea. Expand this expression with mult…

I'm pretty sure the more recent, higher-end RPN calculators have lots more than 4 stack slots. 4 is usually enough in practice anyway. Your example is artificial. Besides, are you sure your infix calculator will accept this deep a nesting of parentheses? The TI models that were contemporary with the early HPs certainly wouldn't!

[deleted]

Re: The early history of HP calculators

#89
post #28
post #16

Getting good condition HP calculators can be quite expensive second hand. People interested in buying a new one should check out swissmicros [1]. They are bringing out an HP42s clone with quad precision decimal accuracy, which I'm looking forward to! [2] [1] http://www.swissmicros.com/ [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8LatjXPgLI8 EDIT: I don't have any involvement with swissmicros apart from anticipating their new…

One thing that has always befuddled me with HP calcs is their model numbers that don't seem to follow any rhyme or reason. How does the functionality of DM42 compare to for example WP34? And how does -48 compare, besides the relatively useless graphing capability? I see lots of people also preferring some other models (15, 16, 35, 41 etc), which I would have imagined to be strict subsets of these "juggernauts", but m…

> One thing that has always befuddled me with HP calcs is their model numbers that don't seem to follow any rhyme or reason.

Back in the day, HP had nice sales literature that described the differences between the models quite nicely.

> And how does -48 compare, besides the relatively useless graphing capability?

The -42 and -48 were both intended to be successors, of a sort, to the HP-41 family. The -42 It was less expensive than a -48, and placed more emphasis on a function-per-key style of operation, as well as -41 compatibility. (The -42 was program source-code compatible with a nicely loaded instance of a -41.) Where the -42 suffered in comparison to the -41 was that it did not offer any kind of expansion slots, and, unlike the -41, the -42 was never intended to be the 'top of the line'.

To understand the -48, you need to look back to the -28 (as well as a couple of similar business models). After developing the -41, HP realized that they needed a new higher level internal programming model to take the calculator line to where they wanted it to go. In reaction to their growing ambitions, they developed a language for their calculators called RPL... Reverse Polish Lisp. There are a few examples of RPL in this thread, but if you think of a dynamically typed type safe variant of FORTH you wouldn't be far off from RPL. It was RPL that brought features like symbolic algebra, graphics, and a >4 level stack HP's product line, and it was the -28 that was the first scientific instance of this platform. However, the -28 was a bulky clamshell design, behaved fairly differently from a -41, and was sold in parallel with the (still popular) -41 series.

The -48 was a more spiritual successor to both the -41 and the -28. The -48 unified the new programming model of the -28 with the non-folding portrait style casing of the -28. The -48 also added a serial port and a couple expansion ports, so it carried forward some of the -41's legacy of expandability.

> I see lots of people also preferring some other models (15, 16, 35, 41 etc), which I would have imagined to be strict subsets of these "juggernauts", but maybe that is not the case?

I have an -11, a couple -48 variants, and a -42 emulator on my phone. While the -48 is strictly the most powerful, it can also be a bit cumbersome to use. The smaller platforms have their place.

Re: The early history of HP calculators

#90

I've never used an HP calculator, but I've recently been getting interested in emacs' calc, which is also RPN. Could someone who's used both talk a bit about how they compare? Are calc and emacs missing something that made HP great?

Interesting you ask.... Emacs Calc was inspired by the HP-28.

https://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/html_mono/calc.htm...

It's not the same, but having used both, they are very similar in overall feel.

> Are calc and emacs missing something that made HP great?

A couple things:

First, having specific hardware is (was?) a nice thing.

Secondly, the HP28/48 programming model was very, very orthogonal. It was a more impoverished Lisp than even elisp is today, but it pervaded the entire software stack. While people referred to 'RPL' and 'System RPL' with two different names, the truth is that there was no real distinction between the programming language you used as a user and the programming language used by HP to build the machine in the first place. This kind of solidity and general 'gestalt' pervaded the operation of the machine and made them joys to use.

Post reply on HN