Live data from Hacker News

XX Combinator

terezan.tumblr.com

41–50 of 67 posts

Re: XX Combinator

#41
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Damn, you started out strong and then things fell apart a bit. That's what I get for voting without reading all the way through. This whole article smacks of the idea that there is something fundamentally different about men and women and their capabilities at different points in their adult life Men and women are fundamentally different, and research from a wide variety of fields continues to support that. I find it…

Could you point me at some studies that suggest that there are intrinsic things about men and women that would make it more likely for women to not be capable of participating in a startup in their 20s? I don't claim that the male and female mind are the same. I suspect that the differences between them have more to do with culture and pattern-recognition than biology, even though there is some overlap there. I'm als…

Look I am intersexed and I have dealt with such stuff all of my life. The one thing I have learnt is that we aren't blank slates, but we aren't mentally engineered either. It is true that environment plays a huge role in the development of a child, but please understand this.

Gender is something that is innate to your mind. Be it through proprioception or something more complex than that. It is etched in you in the womb and the way it expresses itself is something that is acquired in tandem with the environment. Now understand this too, gender is a spectrum. What most talks center around are the peaks of the two bell curves, but there are lots of folks on either sides. There are kind, sensitive men and abusive, viscous women. The truth is just like skin color gender isn't exactly something to go on when dealing with another human being. Some people tend to conform, but a lot of folks don't and those are the interesting ones.

I feel like laughing my head off each time I read such things. It is true that it sucks to be a woman, but it sucks to be a man too. I will say this again and again, when you see the spaces society creates as an outsider then you begin to understand that things aren't absolute. I am sub-human to most people, and my right to access a lot of spaces that most readers of this thread take for granted is fought out in courts around the world. To most people I am a freak, but they don't understand. They've been taught to see a world that can fit in neat boxes, only that nature doesn't really care. [edit: This sounds really mean and rude when I read it again before going to sleep. To any reader I assure you this was not my intention. I am sorry if I came across like that to you.]

What I am trying to say is that don't create women only spaces, or LGBTI friendly spaces, or anything like that. Create human friendly spaces. Embrace and accept the differences in others and only then can you see that the world is far more complex than any label we can slap on top of it.

[edit: forgot grammar and spell check. Sorry.]

Re: XX Combinator

#42
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which is an excellent argument not to discriminate against an individual. However, what the OP and this thread are discussing is ways of 'fixing' a low percentage of women in startups. Which could be caused by either women on average having a worse skill set for startups or on average having less of a desire to take risky economic decisions. If these are the causes then there isn't likely to be any way to 'fix' it.

I'm fairly certain that the percentage of women in startups is much lower than can be explained by purely biological means.

I bet it can be completely explained by a combination of biological and environmental causes.

Just because the claim is made that there are biological differences between men and women does not mean that the disparity of women vs. men in startups is entirely (or even mostly) due to biological causes.

If you want more women in startups then you have to either change women or change startups.

Re: XX Combinator

#44
post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This whole article smacks of the idea that there is something fundamentally different about men and women and their capabilities at different points in their adult life. I think this idea is harmful. But what if it's true? I know it's not politically correct to say this, but there are biological differences between men and women, rooted in our different roles in reproduction. Yes, we are more similar than different f…

It could be true, and if it is then we need to think about equality in a different manner, I suppose. I strongly suspect that the vast majority of the differences are cultural in nature -- in fact I suspect that patterns exposed through culture that are identified as valid by the brains of the people experiencing them are biological differences, but they're not biological differences in the sense of what makes us a s…

Cultural enforcement starts at a very young age. I've seen preschool girls tell boys that they aren't allowed to play with the plastic kitchen because boys don't cook!

Now if there is a large pool of 40 year old women who want to start companies we could:

A) Provide an environment in which this is possible B) Say that choice A is condescending because it's only due to cultural differences that they didn't start a startup 20 years ago

I personally will choose A because while I have no idea how to change a culture that is enforced by 4 year old kids, but I kind of think think seeing successful women entrepreneurs might help

Re: XX Combinator

#45
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do not doubt that men are more predisposed to risk, or that testosterone does not play a role in the decision-making process of humans, but I do not think that these studies show enough of a discrepancy to account for the low amount of women involved in startups, or the low ratio of women in tech fields in general. I would not be surprised if there were a somewhat higher percentage of males versus females in tech.…

On what basis? We have a low pool of female talent (in tech), I have given you a mechanic whereby women would be less disposed to getting involved in startups. That gives us (statistically poor) evidence of an outcome and a mechanism which could cause it. Why do you feel there must be some extra discrimination that must be limiting female Y-Combinator applicants with no evidence to back this up? What is the mechanic?…

You have given me a mechanic that accounts for a minor discrepancy in behavioral patterns, not a large one.

No evidence of women not getting involved in tech because they felt inadequate as women? This is something that people have been screaming about for a while.

A lot, if not the majority, of women are brought up surrounded by the assumption that they aren't good at math, or that they won't be doing much of anything but be housewives, as a lot of men are brought up surrounded by the assumption that they will be providers, and will chase tail. These are, obviously, simplifications.

A lifetime of being discouraged from "not your gender" activities is going to make an individual less likely to do said activities, regardless of their natural propensity for said activities.

The 7 women who did get in would be women who either realized that they were capable of it, decided they didn't care about the social pressures, or weren't surrounded by the social pressures to begin with. They could also be females that are closer to the average male in the ways that count for joining a startup. There's a lot of possibilities.

I dont think that Y Combinator has been discriminating against women. I do think that the cultural perception of gender roles in the US makes it less likely for women who would otherwise be applying to even get to the point where they'd have something to put on an application.

Less than a hundred years ago, women didn't have the right to vote. There's still a large percentage of the population that thinks that the place for a woman is in the kitchen, making babies. Do you really think that theses attitudes have no effect on the amount of women doing things like joining startups? You and I may not have attitudes like that, but if you think that those attitudes are rare, you are mistaken.

The same thing happens with men with different activities.

The studies you showed, while they did show differences between males and females with regards to risk-taking, did not show a huge difference between males and females. If we were talking about 11 female founders out of 30, it would be one thing. That is not the case. There is a large difference, and I find the "well men are more prone to risk taking" argument quite unconvincing when the data shows that men are more prone to taking risks -- but not nearly to the same degree as the discrepancy.

Furthermore, many of the social risk-taking activities studied may not be motivated out of anything that is intrinsic to being a man or a woman. A man may take risks as a form of mating dance. A man may also take risks because "that's what a man does".

This is not a simple issue, and I doubt it can be reduced to purely biological differences, other than in the very literal level that all differences between individuals can.

Re: XX Combinator

#46
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Damn, you started out strong and then things fell apart a bit. That's what I get for voting without reading all the way through. This whole article smacks of the idea that there is something fundamentally different about men and women and their capabilities at different points in their adult life Men and women are fundamentally different, and research from a wide variety of fields continues to support that. I find it…

Male and female bodies are not completely different. I suspect for example knees work similarly across genders. So it does not automatically follow that the brains are different. Sure, there will be some different things. For example female brains probably have learned to not bump into things with their chests, whereas male brains have learned not to bump into things with their groins.

I find this sort of reductio ad pundenda dehumanizing: it betrays a pathological contempt for subtlety; and an autistic insensibility to humanity.

Re: XX Combinator

#47
Why are entrepreneurs mostly male?

I believe this deserves another look: http://www.psy.fsu.edu/~baumeistertice/goodaboutmen.htm

TDLR: "For women throughout history (and prehistory), the odds of reproducing have been pretty good. Later in this talk we will ponder things like, why was it so rare for a hundred women to get together and build a ship and sail off to explore unknown regions, whereas men have fairly regularly done such things? But taking chances like that would be stupid, from the perspective of a biological organism seeking to reproduce. They might drown or be killed by savages or catch a disease. For women, the optimal thing to do is go along with the crowd, be nice, play it safe. The odds are good that men will come along and offer sex and you’ll be able to have babies. All that matters is choosing the best offer. We’re descended from women who played it safe.

For men, the outlook was radically different. If you go along with the crowd and play it safe, the odds are you won’t have children. Most men who ever lived did not have descendants who are alive today. Their lines were dead ends. Hence it was necessary to take chances, try new things, be creative, explore other possibilities."

Re: XX Combinator

#48
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Could you point me at some studies that suggest that there are intrinsic things about men and women that would make it more likely for women to not be capable of participating in a startup in their 20s? I don't claim that the male and female mind are the same. I suspect that the differences between them have more to do with culture and pattern-recognition than biology, even though there is some overlap there. I'm als…

Look I am intersexed and I have dealt with such stuff all of my life. The one thing I have learnt is that we aren't blank slates, but we aren't mentally engineered either. It is true that environment plays a huge role in the development of a child, but please understand this. Gender is something that is innate to your mind. Be it through proprioception or something more complex than that. It is etched in you in the w…

I'm on the same page regarding gender and the need for an effort for "human friendly spaces". I've been phrasing things in a binary-gender manner because gender being a spectrum is a bit tangential and distracting to the point here, and is something that a much lower percentage of the population seems to have waken up to.

FWIW, I've spent a fair amount of time explaining that it doesn't just suck to be a woman, or a man, or a whatever to people. I think it's very hard for people to see how much assumptions about the way people are supposed to act based on their appearances or physical features really affect peoples day-to-day lives. Whether that's avoidable or not is another discussion.

Anyhow, I wish you luck.

Re: XX Combinator

#49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Damn, you started out strong and then things fell apart a bit. That's what I get for voting without reading all the way through. This whole article smacks of the idea that there is something fundamentally different about men and women and their capabilities at different points in their adult life Men and women are fundamentally different, and research from a wide variety of fields continues to support that. I find it…

You've got this wrong. kaens did not claim that men and women are "fundamentally the same". He's saying, don't assume there are fundamental (crippling) differences. All you've pointed out is that there are indeed fundamental differences of some kinds, but not of the sort kaens was talking about. The inconclusiveness you raise supports his point. Edit: Wow. Downvoted. What on earth for?

"Don't assume there are fundamental (crippling) differences."

I think you should assume fundamental differences, because that's what both the research and experience show. Certainly more can be done for younger women, but if you don't think that businesswomen in their 40s are on average more capable than their younger counterparts then you probably haven't spent much time around businesswomen. (For reference, I took a class on women and entrepreneurship so I've been exposed to a lot of 20ish female entrepreneurs and a lot of 40ish businesswomen.)

Re: XX Combinator

#50
post #44
post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It could be true, and if it is then we need to think about equality in a different manner, I suppose. I strongly suspect that the vast majority of the differences are cultural in nature -- in fact I suspect that patterns exposed through culture that are identified as valid by the brains of the people experiencing them are biological differences, but they're not biological differences in the sense of what makes us a s…

Cultural enforcement starts at a very young age. I've seen preschool girls tell boys that they aren't allowed to play with the plastic kitchen because boys don't cook! Now if there is a large pool of 40 year old women who want to start companies we could: A) Provide an environment in which this is possible B) Say that choice A is condescending because it's only due to cultural differences that they didn't start a sta…

Cultural enforcement starts at a very young age.

Yes, I'm well aware of that. It's more or less what I've been talking about.

A) Provide an environment in which this is possible B) Say that choice A is condescending because it's only due to cultural differences that they didn't start a startup 20 years ago

C) Provide an environment in which this is possible that is not exclusionary in nature. Just do A, but don't exclude non-women, and don't market exclusively at women.

Post reply on HN