XX Combinator • Hacker News Board

Re: XX Combinator

#21

Post by oldgregg » Fri, Jul 16, 2010, 5:02 PM UTC

ryanwaggoner wrote: post #9

kaens wrote: post #5

I'm sympathetic to a cause here, but I can't help but think that things like this might do more to promote sexism than not. I think the idea that women are somehow less capable of doing the "3-months in Silicon Valley" is harmful. I think that the (not directly) implied idea that it would be easier for men (men with families even) to do the startup dance on a string budget is harmful. I think the idea that women just…

Damn, you started out strong and then things fell apart a bit. That's what I get for voting without reading all the way through. This whole article smacks of the idea that there is something fundamentally different about men and women and their capabilities at different points in their adult life Men and women are fundamentally different, and research from a wide variety of fields continues to support that. I find it…

Thank you. If you really want to attract scorn the question could extend to race as well. Too often we confuse equality with uniformity. Woman tend to be worse at math, black guys tend to be great at basketball. Who cares? We're all people.

Political correctness puts a thin outward veneer over real the issue -- that deep inside of us we all want to be better than the people around us-- race, gender, physical disabilities and class are only the most obvious ways that we all play the game.

Re: XX Combinator

#22

Post by dieterrams » Fri, Jul 16, 2010, 5:07 PM UTC

mindcrime wrote: post #7

kaens wrote: post #5

I'm sympathetic to a cause here, but I can't help but think that things like this might do more to promote sexism than not. I think the idea that women are somehow less capable of doing the "3-months in Silicon Valley" is harmful. I think that the (not directly) implied idea that it would be easier for men (men with families even) to do the startup dance on a string budget is harmful. I think the idea that women just…

This whole article smacks of the idea that there is something fundamentally different about men and women and their capabilities at different points in their adult life. I think this idea is harmful. But what if it's true? I know it's not politically correct to say this, but there are biological differences between men and women, rooted in our different roles in reproduction. Yes, we are more similar than different f…

> But what if it's true?

And what if it's not? What's wrong with resisting the idea until we actually know?

Yeah, there are deep biological differences, no doubt. But the idea that women were fundamentally incapable of X for biological reasons has been the norm in history, and the history of women has been repeatedly proving that they can, in fact, do X.

Re: XX Combinator

#23

Post by adw » Fri, Jul 16, 2010, 5:12 PM UTC

dieterrams wrote: post #16

ryanwaggoner wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Damn, you started out strong and then things fell apart a bit. That's what I get for voting without reading all the way through. This whole article smacks of the idea that there is something fundamentally different about men and women and their capabilities at different points in their adult life Men and women are fundamentally different, and research from a wide variety of fields continues to support that. I find it…

You've got this wrong. kaens did not claim that men and women are "fundamentally the same". He's saying, don't assume there are fundamental (crippling) differences. All you've pointed out is that there are indeed fundamental differences of some kinds, but not of the sort kaens was talking about. The inconclusiveness you raise supports his point. Edit: Wow. Downvoted. What on earth for?

Amen.

There are, obviously, some population differences between men and women; for instance, on average men are taller. Blame the hormones. But people confuse mean and variance, and this is one case where instinctive ignorance of probability is tantamount to sexism. In fact, it's plain rude to do that to people.

Okay, an example. Let's say that on average, men are better fighters than women - whether that's societal or innate is neither here nor there, but take it as generally true. It doesn't change the fact that my sister could kick my arse. If I trusted in statistics there, I'd have been wearing my teeth as a necklace by the age of ten.

So even if the means are different, the variances are so high that you can't know what the person in front of you, male or female, is good at. What that means is that if you go into something like this with preconceptions based on gender, then you are being unfair to the person in front of you - male or female - by not judging them on who they are and what they can do. And if you fail to allow for the gender roles that society forces people into, then you're closing yourself off to talent. And if you close yourself off to talent you can use, your company deserves to fail.

I don't want to be that guy or that company.

(This is pretty personal for me, actually; my mother taught me BASIC when I was seven or so. She's a much better programmer than I am.)

Re: XX Combinator

#24

Post by seanalltogether » Fri, Jul 16, 2010, 5:17 PM UTC

natgordon wrote: post #20

ryanelkins wrote: post #3

I don't think any of the reasons mentioned here for keeping women out is gender specific. It's more hacker vs "idea person" or how I prefer to think of it, those who can code vs those who can't code. This is more about "Y Combinator for non coders" than it is about "Y Combinator for women". This is something I see a lot of - people with some experience that want to start a tech startup but want to hire out some devel…

The 35-year old cut-off could be considered gender-specific. I'm a 30-year old female entrepreneur and software developer. I would love to do Y-combinator or other incubator program. I also want to start a family. If I wait for years to have kids, there is a statistically higher risk of infertility. This isn't the case for men. I think the author is correct that women may be more ready to launch a start-up when they'…

"I think the author is correct that women may be more ready to launch a start-up when they're 40" I think this is a valid statement.

However, the argument then becomes, 'Is it a good business strategy to invest and nurture a pool of 40 year old entrepreneurs?'

Re: XX Combinator

#25

Post by Super_Jambo » Fri, Jul 16, 2010, 5:20 PM UTC

kaens wrote: post #19

ryanwaggoner wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Damn, you started out strong and then things fell apart a bit. That's what I get for voting without reading all the way through. This whole article smacks of the idea that there is something fundamentally different about men and women and their capabilities at different points in their adult life Men and women are fundamentally different, and research from a wide variety of fields continues to support that. I find it…

Could you point me at some studies that suggest that there are intrinsic things about men and women that would make it more likely for women to not be capable of participating in a startup in their 20s? I don't claim that the male and female mind are the same. I suspect that the differences between them have more to do with culture and pattern-recognition than biology, even though there is some overlap there. I'm als…

Startups are very risky, men are more predisposed to risk: http://www.epjournal.net/filestore/ep062942.pdf

Re: XX Combinator

#26

Post by kaens » Fri, Jul 16, 2010, 5:22 PM UTC

anamax wrote: post #15

kaens wrote: post #5

I'm sympathetic to a cause here, but I can't help but think that things like this might do more to promote sexism than not. I think the idea that women are somehow less capable of doing the "3-months in Silicon Valley" is harmful. I think that the (not directly) implied idea that it would be easier for men (men with families even) to do the startup dance on a string budget is harmful. I think the idea that women just…

> This whole article smacks of the idea that there is something fundamentally different about men and women and their capabilities at different points in their adult life. I think this idea is harmful. The vast majority of male humans are not capable of giving birth at any point during their lives. We can argue about the consequences of that fact, but it's hard to believe that there are no consequences. What other fa…

I absolutely think that should be discussed. I don't doubt that there are some consequences of that, but I don't think they're nearly as extreme as some people paint them to be.

Edit: I don't think that anything should be barred from discussion. Taboo topics are harmful, in my opinion.

Re: XX Combinator

#27

Post by cedsav » Fri, Jul 16, 2010, 5:23 PM UTC

natgordon wrote: post #20

ryanelkins wrote: post #3

I don't think any of the reasons mentioned here for keeping women out is gender specific. It's more hacker vs "idea person" or how I prefer to think of it, those who can code vs those who can't code. This is more about "Y Combinator for non coders" than it is about "Y Combinator for women". This is something I see a lot of - people with some experience that want to start a tech startup but want to hire out some devel…

The 35-year old cut-off could be considered gender-specific. I'm a 30-year old female entrepreneur and software developer. I would love to do Y-combinator or other incubator program. I also want to start a family. If I wait for years to have kids, there is a statistically higher risk of infertility. This isn't the case for men. I think the author is correct that women may be more ready to launch a start-up when they'…

Thanks for offering your perspective, it's the best thing I've read in this thread...

Re: XX Combinator

#28

Post by Super_Jambo » Fri, Jul 16, 2010, 5:25 PM UTC

kaens wrote: post #19

ryanwaggoner wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Damn, you started out strong and then things fell apart a bit. That's what I get for voting without reading all the way through. This whole article smacks of the idea that there is something fundamentally different about men and women and their capabilities at different points in their adult life Men and women are fundamentally different, and research from a wide variety of fields continues to support that. I find it…

Could you point me at some studies that suggest that there are intrinsic things about men and women that would make it more likely for women to not be capable of participating in a startup in their 20s? I don't claim that the male and female mind are the same. I suspect that the differences between them have more to do with culture and pattern-recognition than biology, even though there is some overlap there. I'm als…

Effect of testosterone on economic behavior: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/08/090824151254.ht...

Re: XX Combinator

#29

Post by kaens » Fri, Jul 16, 2010, 5:27 PM UTC

oldgregg wrote: post #21

ryanwaggoner wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Damn, you started out strong and then things fell apart a bit. That's what I get for voting without reading all the way through. This whole article smacks of the idea that there is something fundamentally different about men and women and their capabilities at different points in their adult life Men and women are fundamentally different, and research from a wide variety of fields continues to support that. I find it…

Thank you. If you really want to attract scorn the question could extend to race as well. Too often we confuse equality with uniformity. Woman tend to be worse at math, black guys tend to be great at basketball. Who cares? We're all people. Political correctness puts a thin outward veneer over real the issue -- that deep inside of us we all want to be better than the people around us-- race, gender, physical disabili…

I think that there are many things done in the same vein with the intent of alleviating minority's struggles due to racism that do more to promote the concept of racism than not.

I'm not confusing equality with uniformity, although it's hard to express why that is clearly.

deep inside of us we all want to be better than the people around us

I disagree with this, particularly strongly with the absoluteness of it, and I think that it's an attitude that is mostly propagated by a weird bunch of cultural catch-22s.

Re: XX Combinator

#30

Post by btilly » Fri, Jul 16, 2010, 5:28 PM UTC

What I read is this, "I want a Y-combinator, except where I live, aimed at my gender and with a schedule I can accept. Oh, and please supply the tech talent I need. If things work out I can reward the coders with salary and possibly a CTO position down the road."

Need I explain what is wrong with that picture?

If you don't see the problems, you might start by reading http://blog.wepay.com/2010/03/5-things-i-%E2%80%9Cknew%E2%80... and seeing how many critical pieces don't work. Starting with the whole supply/demand issue around technical and non-technical co-founders.