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The early history of HP calculators

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Re: The early history of HP calculators

#61

Notice the distinct lack of an '=' button --- HP's calculators have been almost exclusively RPN-based. It's funny to watch other (newer) developers reactions when they ask to borrow the calculator that's usually on my desk (a 42S) and then give it back several minutes later, with a puzzled look on their faces.

"you've been stacked" -- HP calc owner Last year I finally read the whole manual (as a teen I only used the symbolic differentiator, most useful and magical to my brain at the time). Since I learned about Lisp, so RPN programming features appealed to me. I realized that: 1) RPN has lambda > means (lambda (...) (+ 2 ...)) 2) RPN has a short syntax for them a 2 + >> Yes, 1990 HP RPN had arrow notation out of the box. T…

> 2) RPN has a short syntax for them a 2 + >>

The syntax is slightly different. What it should be is this

a > >>

The arrow introduces a binding form that captures the top n levels of the stack into n named local variables. (There's also a lower level implementation that forgoes the names in favor of a lookup-by-ordinal scheme that's a lot faster.)

The other notable difference from what you might expect is that the lexical environment is not captured:

Consider this function:

a > >> >>

What it returns is a function object that looks like this, except that 'a' is a local variable reference rather than the global variable reference it looks like:

>

Evaluating this results in an error, because while 'a' is represented as a local variable reference, the environment containing the local binding for 'a' is no longer available.

Re: The early history of HP calculators

#62
post #2

Still got and use my 12C, and 48gx, unfortunately sold my 28 to buy the latter. When you look at the quality of what HP used to produce versus now, it's very sad.

> When you look at the quality of what HP used to produce versus now

I was always impressed that the keys used two color injection molding for the primary labels. There was almost literally no way to wear the label off the keys, since the label was built into the plastic.

Re: The early history of HP calculators

#64

When I started college in 1985, every Physics student had an HP41C. You were at a distinct disadvantage on an exam if you had an infix calculator. I still have my HP41CX that my dad bought me in 1985. Now I don't see any of the students using them. What happened? When I used to teach, I would write a large expression on the board and challenge students to a calculator duel -- me using my 1985 HP41CX and them using th…

> The magic is the automatic saving of subexpressions on a stack. Once you got the hang of it, you would never want to go back to an infix calculator I was one of these smug HP calculator owners back in high school and college. I loved it and spent hours hacking on it (and also secretly enjoyed the fact that nobody borrowed it since hardly anyone knew how to use it). Years later, I started realizing that the reason w…

I don't think that's fair. Either form requires some mental stack space to convert to the other form. It's just that people are more used to reading and writing infix.

Re: The early history of HP calculators

#65
post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"you've been stacked" -- HP calc owner Last year I finally read the whole manual (as a teen I only used the symbolic differentiator, most useful and magical to my brain at the time). Since I learned about Lisp, so RPN programming features appealed to me. I realized that: 1) RPN has lambda > means (lambda (...) (+ 2 ...)) 2) RPN has a short syntax for them a 2 + >> Yes, 1990 HP RPN had arrow notation out of the box. T…

> 2) RPN has a short syntax for them a 2 + >> The syntax is slightly different. What it should be is this a > >> The arrow introduces a binding form that captures the top n levels of the stack into n named local variables. (There's also a lower level implementation that forgoes the names in favor of a lookup-by-ordinal scheme that's a lot faster.) The other notable difference from what you might expect is that the le…

You're totally right. I already forgot the deails.

I just put out my hp49.. god how I love these things.

ps: I just found out the latest attempt I did last years was a var called REC = U > >> .. pretty sure I was trying a fixpoint CPS factorial in RPN

Re: The early history of HP calculators

#66

When I started college in 1985, every Physics student had an HP41C. You were at a distinct disadvantage on an exam if you had an infix calculator. I still have my HP41CX that my dad bought me in 1985. Now I don't see any of the students using them. What happened? When I used to teach, I would write a large expression on the board and challenge students to a calculator duel -- me using my 1985 HP41CX and them using th…

The magic is the automatic saving of subexpressions on a stack. Once you got the hang of it, you would never want to go back to an infix calculator.

Of course, you're comparing the HP41C to bad infix calculators, early ones that didn't support algebraic order of operations or explicit parentheses.

It's worth remembering that postfix calculators exist not because they were ever the right thing to do, but because they were easier to implement with limited computing power. Forcing the user to keep track of the stack context was a clever hack on HP's part, but is no longer necessary or justifiable. And that's why you don't see many new postfix calculators these days.

Re: The early history of HP calculators

#67
post #28
post #16

Getting good condition HP calculators can be quite expensive second hand. People interested in buying a new one should check out swissmicros [1]. They are bringing out an HP42s clone with quad precision decimal accuracy, which I'm looking forward to! [2] [1] http://www.swissmicros.com/ [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8LatjXPgLI8 EDIT: I don't have any involvement with swissmicros apart from anticipating their new…

One thing that has always befuddled me with HP calcs is their model numbers that don't seem to follow any rhyme or reason. How does the functionality of DM42 compare to for example WP34? And how does -48 compare, besides the relatively useless graphing capability? I see lots of people also preferring some other models (15, 16, 35, 41 etc), which I would have imagined to be strict subsets of these "juggernauts", but m…

The 48 was quite a bit bigger than the 42s, which I think is the main downside. A bit of googling suggests the 48 contains similar features to the 42s, and probably more. It can also show the full 4 level stack - the 42s showed 2.

However, you're looking for the best all-round scientific calculator (form factor restricted!) the 42s probably wins. The voyager series (including the 15 and 16) were well-made and in landscape format, which is nice for using on-the-go with both thumbs. They are more simplistic though - you see one line of the stack, and there aren't menus - hence several variations to cater for different markets.

The HP41 was an impressive programmable calculator for its time, and seems to be more expandable than the 42s. However, the 42s is programmable, has a few more features and a more modern display.

Not sure about the WP34, though if you look at the cost of a second hand 42s, you'll see that many people rate it much higher than more modern HP calculators. I think what puts me off more recent calculators and even some other HPs, is the ambivalence about RPN. I really like RPN, and don't like when the UI is compromised to please both.

[1] http://www.hpmuseum.org/cgi-sys/cgiwrap/hpmuseum/archv005.cg...

Re: The early history of HP calculators

#68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The magic is the automatic saving of subexpressions on a stack. Once you got the hang of it, you would never want to go back to an infix calculator I was one of these smug HP calculator owners back in high school and college. I loved it and spent hours hacking on it (and also secretly enjoyed the fact that nobody borrowed it since hardly anyone knew how to use it). Years later, I started realizing that the reason w…

I don't think that's fair. Either form requires some mental stack space to convert to the other form. It's just that people are more used to reading and writing infix.

Yes, I find complex equations to be far easier to calculate in RPN. Even if you get stuck you have a useful intermediate. On algebraic I find I'm having to back pedal to sort out parentheses for lower order operators.

Re: The early history of HP calculators

#69
post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Basically after the merger with Compaq in 2001, HP lost interest in their calculators. They still technically sell them, but they aren't advertised to any degree. Obviously since the advent of the smartphone the need for dedicated calculators is lessened, but as you say, the haptic feedback is nice and TI seems to be still selling a lot of calculators.

They were dying long before smartphones. Cheap Casio calculators happened. I have a little $15 Casio scientific calculator and it has been all that I've needed for college and professional work. But it can take integrals, derivatives and has a general newtonian solver. It covers everything except matrices. Those are miserable to do on any calculator so I'm not missing much. In all my life I've only ever seen two HP R…

Yup - among us maths geeks at school in the 80s the HPs - especially the 41 - were the Rolls Royce of calculators, beautiful machines that few could afford, although even the high end programmable Casio that I settled for was pretty pricey.

Re: The early history of HP calculators

#70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I love stack languages. Forth, Factor, Joy, Cat .. (all the concatenative crew). ps: there are some Chuck Moore talks on youtube that are worth gold. His CPUs are heaven

Have you used his greenarrays chips? If so I'd love to hear anything you have to say on them and your Forth experience in general.

oh no, I was far removed from this kind of things, I'm a java/python coder let's say. But I recently dug into low level electronics so I hope I can put my hands on one.
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