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Google's fight to keep search a secret

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Re: Google's fight to keep search a secret

#11

Post by jsz0 »

kiba wrote: post #2

Why does the hell that somebody think that they have the right to force Google to have its algorithm published? It's not like the government is propping up Google or that if anybody is locked in as a user in the search market. There are already a huge number of search engine and information filters.

I think it would be completely reasonable to ask Google for detailed advance warning of algorithmic changes that may effect the Internet economy. Making them disclose the entire algorithm is too much and invites further gaming of the system.

Re: Google's fight to keep search a secret

#12

Post by alnayyir »

alnayyir wrote: post #7
kiba wrote: post #2

Why does the hell that somebody think that they have the right to force Google to have its algorithm published? It's not like the government is propping up Google or that if anybody is locked in as a user in the search market. There are already a huge number of search engine and information filters.

They want to look like they're "doing something" and in the process keep the populists happy.

To clarify, Google does not de facto nor de jure have a monopoly even if they are wildly popular.

I'll call Google a monopoly when they buy off Microsoft to shut down Bing and buy out DuckDuckGo. Their practices are occasionally questionable, but that doesn't constitute a monopoly in and of itself.

Re: Google's fight to keep search a secret

#13

Post by patio11 »

moultano wrote: post #3

"Google needs to figure out a way to shore up the public's confidence in its integrity " [citation needed] I haven't heard "the public" complaining about not knowing how Google ranks results. That seems to be limited to spammers and the journalists they dupe into their sob stories.

The best lie the devil ever told was convincing the world he did not exist, and the best triumph of Google's PR campaign is convincing developers that any developer interested in Google rankings who is not an employee of theirs is by definition a web spammer.

Disclaimer: I am very freaking interested in Google rankings, since they determine my ability to eat.

Re: Google's fight to keep search a secret

#14

Post by bigiain »

jessriedel wrote: post #8
kiba wrote: post #2

Why does the hell that somebody think that they have the right to force Google to have its algorithm published? It's not like the government is propping up Google or that if anybody is locked in as a user in the search market. There are already a huge number of search engine and information filters.

I generally agree, but there is an issue if Google has a monopolistic market share, even if there are many other options. As you say, there is very little customer lock-in, so there should be a high bar for calling Google a monopoly. On the other hand, there is a large entry cost for the search martket.

Is there really a "large cost of entry"? I somehow doubt Duck Duck Go has a multi-billion dollar war chest backing it...

And Google's "monopoly" is very much based on it's reputation - remember how quickly we all jumped ship from Alta Vista - and surely Bing and Yahoo provide enough competition that if Google _were_ manipulating search returns in obviously monopolistic ways, people would notice and publish evidence soon enough?

Re: Google's fight to keep search a secret

#15

Post by llimllib »

> Simply put, there are a growing number of regulators, agitators, and regular people who just don't trust Google when it comes to the integrity of its search results.

More simply put, there are a growing number of * who would like to get a piece of that google action.

Re: Google's fight to keep search a secret

#17

Post by ars »

patio11 wrote: post #13
moultano wrote: post #3

"Google needs to figure out a way to shore up the public's confidence in its integrity " [citation needed] I haven't heard "the public" complaining about not knowing how Google ranks results. That seems to be limited to spammers and the journalists they dupe into their sob stories.

The best lie the devil ever told was convincing the world he did not exist, and the best triumph of Google's PR campaign is convincing developers that any developer interested in Google rankings who is not an employee of theirs is by definition a web spammer. Disclaimer: I am very freaking interested in Google rankings, since they determine my ability to eat.

Then you are a "spammer", because you care for your results to be high, but I care for the results to be useful.

Can you honestly say you would prefer that your site be ranked lower than that of a competitor with better information?

Re: Google's fight to keep search a secret

#18

Post by lol »

ars wrote: post #17
patio11 wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The best lie the devil ever told was convincing the world he did not exist, and the best triumph of Google's PR campaign is convincing developers that any developer interested in Google rankings who is not an employee of theirs is by definition a web spammer. Disclaimer: I am very freaking interested in Google rankings, since they determine my ability to eat.

Then you are a "spammer", because you care for your results to be high, but I care for the results to be useful. Can you honestly say you would prefer that your site be ranked lower than that of a competitor with better information?

Where exactly does he say he wants to beat competitors with better information?

Oh right, nowhere. He probably wants to beat out a bunch of pointless white noise.

But hey... thanks for being a retard who thinks it's cool to accuse people of spamming because they're interested in making sure they show up in an appropriate place in the search marketplace!

Re: Google's fight to keep search a secret

#19

Post by AlisdairO »

alnayyir wrote: post #12
alnayyir wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They want to look like they're "doing something" and in the process keep the populists happy.

To clarify, Google does not de facto nor de jure have a monopoly even if they are wildly popular. I'll call Google a monopoly when they buy off Microsoft to shut down Bing and buy out DuckDuckGo. Their practices are occasionally questionable, but that doesn't constitute a monopoly in and of itself.

A monopoly is merely having sufficient market share. Which isn't necessarily bad, although it usually is. What you're talking about is abusing a monopoly.

Re: Google's fight to keep search a secret

#20

Post by pwim »

"if search engines were forced to disclose their algorithms and not just the signals they use, or, worse, if they had to use a standardized algorithm, spammers would certainly use that knowledge to game the system, making the results suspect."

Regardless of whether or not it would be a good idea for Google to be required to open their algorithm, I don't like this reason. It is security by obscurity. Spammers can only take advantage of flaws in Google's algorithm. By opening it to the public, I'm sure the algorithm itself would be improved.

The real reason Google doesn't want to expose it is that it is a competitive advantage. They should be upfront about that at least.

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