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Coding Boot Camps Get the Boot: Why the Industry Is Shutting Down

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Re: Coding Boot Camps Get the Boot: Why the Industry Is Shutting Down

#141

Post by stale2002 »

daotoad wrote: post #136
stale2002 wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The PhD and MS stuff is not being asked in interviews. Yes, that stuff is hard. Tech interviews are 40 minutes max. There is only so much stuff that can be asked and programmed in such a short amount of time. The stuff being asked in tech interviews is "traverse a tree in this interesting way". There are only so many ways to traverse a tree. And no, I am not talking about crud interviews, I am talking about Google in…

Tech interviews are 40 minutes max? Where are you interviewing? I have seen far more 6+ hour interview loops that 40 minute ones. Maybe each session within the full loop accounts for 40 minutes. That being said, people have their pet questions they use to sort the wheat from the chaff--if you can't fizzbuzz your way out of a wet paper bag, I am not hiring you. The best questions are more about process than the final…

40 minutes as in 40 minutes of coding for a single interview question.

Usually 20 minutes out of a given hour long interview is just BS resume and chit chat.

And yes, there are often 5-6 interviews in a row. But that still leaves the fact that there is only so much that can be covered in an interview with 1 person in the 40 minutes you are given to code a problem.

And those 40 minute coding problems are all taken straight out of cracking the code interview, most of the time. Even at Google.

Process questions are good, and conversational interviews are also good. I wish people would do more of them. But unfortunately it is mostly just algo questions that you have to cram for.

Re: Coding Boot Camps Get the Boot: Why the Industry Is Shutting Down

#142

Post by QuercusMax »

nonconvergent wrote: post #44
aecorredor wrote: post #34

"While coding boot camps had many course listings on JavaScript, Ruby, and web development, they had none that covered product management, wireframing, cloud computing, DevOps, or Agile methodologies" I have a 4 year computer science degree and I didn't learn any of the listed topics either, so I'm not sure if the article is implying that other institutions do prepare new grads for these topics. The main advantage I…

Ditto on the CS Degree. Closest thing I learned to the above skills that was part of the curriculum was Waterfall, UML, and making ERDs. Had to teach myself git.

Sounds like my Software Engineering class I took in ~2002. One of the few CS classes I got a B in (totally my fault). Almost 100% BS. About the only useful thing in UML are interaction diagrams. Everything else is a stupid waste of time.

Re: Coding Boot Camps Get the Boot: Why the Industry Is Shutting Down

#143

Post by brooklyn_ashey »

realitygrill wrote: post #140
brooklyn_ashey wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One "enters the field" of the arts, classics, history, law, medicine, and computer science often as children. The difference in paths taken is this: when one enters the arts or literature or history, there is a good chance one will have to leave it at some point. Many lawyers are former "writers" who while in law school get inspired by a great constitutional law professor or who while in the early days of their profe…

Fair enough. I myself tried to transition to software, but went through Hacker School, now known as the Recurse Center. They're rather closer to a good meal, and are tuition-free. I do know that medical schools have been trying to attract individuals with other backgrounds -- was recruited myself, and admissions committee members told me one reason is that doctors have the impression they may have screwed themselves…

>I'd expect the med school literature courses to have about as much effect as med school statistics courses, though -- little to none. Plus, there's been interest in shortening med school.

I agree with you there about the lit courses. And shortening med school is a great idea, as is allowing residents to sleep full nights on a regular basis.

The Recurse Center: It seems like a great place! I would not include it in any bootcamp discussion because it is more of a retreat than anything else-- an artist colony for programmers or something more akin to Yaddo or McDowell for coders without the snobbery. I think they might be the only ones who have gotten it right. And I agree that they are closer to a good meal. I think a transitioning person would have a good chance of finding inspiration there among its participants due to the flexibility and internal/self motivation that is emphasized and selected for.

And...no one would ever need to hide the Recurse Center (or any related GitHub repositories) from their résumé—they would highlight it.

Re: Coding Boot Camps Get the Boot: Why the Industry Is Shutting Down

#144

Post by thebooglebooski »

Sivart13 wrote: post #9

I think it's a big leap from "two large bootcamps have closed" to "the bootcamp industry is shutting down". Like anything else, there was a big race to capture the market once Dev Bootcamp proved it could work, and now the market is correcting itself. No reason to think bootcamps are going to stop existing altogether.

The author really took the phrase "it takes 2 data points to create a trend" to heart there.

I'm also not a fan of the map on that page. They visually overweigh the closing bootcamps against open ones, when really there were 2 companies that closed many locations.

Re: Coding Boot Camps Get the Boot: Why the Industry Is Shutting Down

#145

Post by blain_the_train »

thehardsphere wrote: post #30
stale2002 wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

LOL! So your argument that what makes a person a good software engineer is the whiteboard coding algorithms? That stuff is EASIER to learn than actual software engineering skills. All you got to do is spend a couple months cramming from the book cracking the code interview. You learn that stuff in a singular CS class, that's called data structures and algorithms. You are right about one thing though, if we are in a s…

> So your argument that what makes a person a good software engineer is the whiteboard coding algorithms? No, his argument is that what makes a person a good software engineer is the ability to think about an abstract problem and come up with a solution to it.

I think you mean, think about a problem abstractly. However, a good abstraction is context specific, which is why it's often hard to deliver one in a interview, because the interviewer is both biased and a working against you.

Re: Coding Boot Camps Get the Boot: Why the Industry Is Shutting Down

#146

Post by gaius »

rufford wrote: post #80
eric_b wrote: post #58

Why do people think a 12 week course will make a non-technical person ready for a junior developer role? Most developers I know have years of deep experience with computers before becoming professional programmers. (Things like fixing driver issues, installing linux, patching games etc). I have several friends who went to bootcamps had no deep technical interest beforehand. They just heard that computer programming w…

Because being a junior dev isn't very hard. And certainly doesn't require 4 years of education on computer science minutiae

But being a junior dev with the potential to become a senior dev does.

Re: Coding Boot Camps Get the Boot: Why the Industry Is Shutting Down

#147

Post by andrewjl »

jefflombardjr wrote: post #56
andrewjl wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Check out https://outco.io which sounds like to covers the parts you find lacking.

This looks like every other boot camp out there. Uses buzzwords like 'pair programming' and stereotypical whiteboard background video. How do you think this differentiates itself from other boot camps? Online/Onsite is not unique.

My understanding is their curriculum covers soft skills in addition to algorithms and data structures. For example students are trained on how to communicate well, verbally and non-verbally, while white boarding, as well as how to present their experiences in best possible light in relation to the job description and what the interviewer is looking for.

I'd say that overall they focus more on the interview phase, though I see a potential to extend the curriculum to get engineers ready for promotion or a management role.

Re: Coding Boot Camps Get the Boot: Why the Industry Is Shutting Down

#148

Post by brooklyn_ashey »

Jemmeh wrote: post #125
jefflombardjr wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At that point, how is that a boot camp and not a paid tutorial? Why would anyone pay for online course work when there is so much available for free from places like MIT and Stanford? I paid for a boot camp to have access to an instructor with industry experience. Not to learn language syntax and build projects.

Well 42 is a bit different than most bootcamps. 42 Code School is free, it's funded by a French billionaire Xavier Niel who made his fortune from telecommunications and technology. There is a branch in Paris and a branch in Silicon Valley. I'd say it's bootcamp-ish in that it's only programming-relevant coursework you work loads of hours, and you don't get a degree, but it's supposed to be 3-5 years total. Last I saw…

very very cool. Too bad you have to be under 30. Are there grants for living expenses? I'd love to tell some younger students about this.

Re: Coding Boot Camps Get the Boot: Why the Industry Is Shutting Down

#149

Post by Jemmeh »

brooklyn_ashey wrote: post #148
Jemmeh wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well 42 is a bit different than most bootcamps. 42 Code School is free, it's funded by a French billionaire Xavier Niel who made his fortune from telecommunications and technology. There is a branch in Paris and a branch in Silicon Valley. I'd say it's bootcamp-ish in that it's only programming-relevant coursework you work loads of hours, and you don't get a degree, but it's supposed to be 3-5 years total. Last I saw…

very very cool. Too bad you have to be under 30. Are there grants for living expenses? I'd love to tell some younger students about this.

They have 300 free dorms, so it's limited but as long as you pick a start date a few months out you have a good chance to get in. You can see when you sign up what dates dorms are available for. Also you can only live in the dorms for I think like the first year or so. You start with a 4 week "piscine" to test if you can hack it, and if you do well you can join for the actual school year. Some free dorms are also available to the pisciners. It is seriously morning to night so you'll have to save up before you attend because it's pretty much impossible to work during the piscine. They say you don't need programming experience to join, but I really recommend someone goes through the HTML, CSS, and Javascript courses on Codecademy before they even consider going at a minimum.

You have to pay for travel to get there and food, though they do have a fairly cheap cafeteria on site. Also if you need a visa they can't help you with that, they are not an accredited school.

Check out the FAQ for more questions https://www.42.us.org/admissions/faq/

Re: Coding Boot Camps Get the Boot: Why the Industry Is Shutting Down

#150

Post by bigspider421 »

josefresco wrote: post #119
bigspider421 wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Disagree. Engineer here - I did a 6 week bootcamp and immediately got hired at Amazon. $150k+, the most I've ever been paid. Still learning tons but my experience was quite positive.

PhD prob helped.

My degree is completely unrelated to CS. Although I do have a strong math background which possibly helped...
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