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Ontario unveils plan for government chain of marijuana stores

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Re: Ontario unveils plan for government chain of marijuana stores

#61

Post by tenpies »

criddell wrote: post #13
JPKab wrote: post #7

I live in Colorado. I think they are really blowing it by making the stores government owned. In Colorado, the stores are privately owned but very, very strictly regulated. Plants are tracked with an RFID all the way to the products derived from them, with a full chain of custody all the way to purchase. Only adults 21 and up can enter them, with a strict dual-check of identification (once to enter, and again when pa…

You're making a lot of assumptions about how they will run the stores. Other people have already mentioned how the government runs the alcohol stores and (IMHO) they do a pretty good job of it. I live in Texas now and when I go back to Ontario to visit my family, it does seem weird that I can't buy beer in a 7-11 or a grocery store or in a drive through shop (not sure these are a good idea). Being the sole seller als…

One aspect no one seems to mention is just how absolutely terrible the selection is at the LCBO. They want consistency at every location, so if you're looking for small-batch or a wine that isn't grossly mass-produced, you have no choice at all. It basically means that unless you have a small producer locally, you only have access to huge corporate producers. It is hugely boring compared to the scene I see in most of the US.

Personally, I make a point of maxing out my alcohol import limits every time I come back.

Re: Ontario unveils plan for government chain of marijuana stores

#62

Post by JPKab »

ontarioborn wrote: post #40
Para2016 wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Being the sole seller and negotiating "ruthlessly" leaves a lot of room for black market.

Not anymore. Beer, cider, and wine are available in some supermarkets since 2016. see https://www.ontario.ca/page/beer-wine-cider-sales-grocery-st... . But it's not like the USA, where cigarettes and beer are the first things one sees when walking into a 7-11.

FYI:

The USA isn't a monolith. Walking into a 7-11 and seeing alcohol and cigarettes everywhere is dependent upon the state you are in.

In Colorado, the only alcohol that can be purchased outside of a regulated liquor store is "Mormon" beer. This is beer whose alcohol content is less than 4%.

In Virginia, liquor can only be purchased at stores run by the state government. Same goes for North Carolina and several other states.

My experience with private liquor stores vs. the state run ones has been that the private ones were better stocked, had significantly better variety, and lower prices. However, that can vary depending on the state.

Re: Ontario unveils plan for government chain of marijuana stores

#63

Post by JPKab »

tenpies wrote: post #61
criddell wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're making a lot of assumptions about how they will run the stores. Other people have already mentioned how the government runs the alcohol stores and (IMHO) they do a pretty good job of it. I live in Texas now and when I go back to Ontario to visit my family, it does seem weird that I can't buy beer in a 7-11 or a grocery store or in a drive through shop (not sure these are a good idea). Being the sole seller als…

One aspect no one seems to mention is just how absolutely terrible the selection is at the LCBO. They want consistency at every location, so if you're looking for small-batch or a wine that isn't grossly mass-produced, you have no choice at all. It basically means that unless you have a small producer locally, you only have access to huge corporate producers. It is hugely boring compared to the scene I see in most of…

Yep. This is what's so depressing about the cannabis stores in Ontario being state run. I LOVE the fact that depending on the store in Colorado I'm in, there will be completely different strains from different producers present. They are all subject to strict and rigorous testing mandated by Colorado's government, so you get the best of both worlds.

The real shame is that this is going to encourage a few large, well-connected producers to seize the market. As in all things regulated, the people who stand to benefit the most from influencing the agency in charge of Ontario's cannabis will be these same producers. I hope I'm wrong.

Re: Ontario unveils plan for government chain of marijuana stores

#64

Post by JPKab »

vkou wrote: post #10
JPKab wrote: post #7

I live in Colorado. I think they are really blowing it by making the stores government owned. In Colorado, the stores are privately owned but very, very strictly regulated. Plants are tracked with an RFID all the way to the products derived from them, with a full chain of custody all the way to purchase. Only adults 21 and up can enter them, with a strict dual-check of identification (once to enter, and again when pa…

> I think they are really blowing it by making the stores government owned. Why? The largest chain of BC liquor stores is government-owned and operated. They do a pretty decent job of it.

"They do a pretty decent job of it."

Compared to who? You have no frame of reference, because they have no competition. They could do a terrible job, and it wouldn't matter. They're a monopoly. They can do it as good or bad as they want, and you'll still go in and buy it.

Re: Ontario unveils plan for government chain of marijuana stores

#65

Post by JPKab »

lpaone wrote: post #57
vkou wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think they are really blowing it by making the stores government owned. Why? The largest chain of BC liquor stores is government-owned and operated. They do a pretty decent job of it.

The BC Liquor stores are not well run. In my experience, the service is slow, the people are not knowledgeable, and you will often have a huge lineup of people waiting at the only cashier that is open. The employees have 0 incentive to change this because they are protected by a powerful union. On top of this, as mentioned in other posts, we have some of the most expensive alcohol in the world. I have travelled to se…

Agreed. The excuse that you will hear over and over again whenever anyone mentions the obvious inefficiencies is the moralistic bullshit where "We shouldn't make it cheap and easy for people to buy poison."

I owe unions for many great things like weekends, safe working conditions, etc. They worked to codify these things into law. Once these things were accomplished, they slowly turned into impediments to competition. Private businesses whose unions went too far were driven out of business or hurt by companies whose unions cooperated with management (GM vs. Toyota). It's funny how the government monopolies (education, transportation, etc) are the most unionized industries left. The unions don't have to care about their customers, so they don't. Toyota has one of the most powerful unions on the planet (Japanese laws after WW2 made sure of that), and yet they don't squeeze out benefits at the expense of customers every chance they get.

Re: Ontario unveils plan for government chain of marijuana stores

#66

Post by tekni5 »

If anyone is interested, there is an interesting documentary about the LCBO. Developed by homebrewers, so it's not completely impartial but also quite fair. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zn555TyJJw0

Giving government absolute control over distribution of a non-essential product/service is probably not the best idea, but at least it's better than having that product/service be completely illegal. Ideally they should allow private businesses to sell under very strict guidelines.

Re: Ontario unveils plan for government chain of marijuana stores

#67

Post by matart »

mwdalrymple wrote: post #28

The LCBO is a good employer for stupid people. Those salaries go right back into the economy. These unionized jobs also come with a great pension providing retirement security. I am quite happy with this. The government privatizing things such as Ontario Hydro has been a huge disaster. At least they are not stupid enough to give this up.

I don't mind it being LCBOish but pot can come in a lot of forms and I'm not sure the government will be up to providing it in oils, candies, cookies, vape juices, baked goods all around, butter, tea, cola, etc. This is something a small shop would make and sell easily. A lot of people enjoy smoke free pot and I am not certain they will handle that.

Re: Ontario unveils plan for government chain of marijuana stores

#69

Post by api_or_ipa »

rbobby wrote: post #47
3pt14159 wrote: post #15

I'm a Toronto native. These are the forces driving this decision: 1. Provincial government is cash poor. The LCBO is a huge source of cash, what government would give up another source? This isn't taxes, this is profit. "Isn't this just another tax?" One might ask, but no it's not. The reason is that Ontario has fewer alcohol distribution centres than a free market would provide. Most people just do a bigger alcohol…

> The union at the LCBO is huge and powerful. The jobs, even seasonal ones, pay well [...] And oddly enough I'm perfectly happy with that. Ontario's strategy with booze is responsible consumption (or whatever it's called)... essentially price it sufficiently high that we don't get too many drunks on the street. Given how badly alcohol abuse can mess up lives (not just the abuser but their family and friends too, not…

> Ontario's strategy with booze is responsible consumption (or whatever it's called)... essentially price it sufficiently high that we don't get too many drunks on the street.

Sin taxes are actually composed of two distinct effects: the effect of increasing price and therefore reducing negative externalities like you mentioned. In addition, a well structured sin tax should use it's gross profit to fund support services like rehabilitation and health services.

LCBO only does 1 of those things well. LCBO marks up their product by a percentage, which impacts premium products more than lower priced products[0]. If LCBO was committed to decreasing consumption of alcohol, it would apply a flat fee to each unit of alcohol, which would maximize utility and minimize the impact to the rest of the alcohol industry.

0: http://hellolcbo.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/1251/~/lcbo-pri...

Re: Ontario unveils plan for government chain of marijuana stores

#70

Post by criddell »

thinkharder wrote: post #46
criddell wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're making a lot of assumptions about how they will run the stores. Other people have already mentioned how the government runs the alcohol stores and (IMHO) they do a pretty good job of it. I live in Texas now and when I go back to Ontario to visit my family, it does seem weird that I can't buy beer in a 7-11 or a grocery store or in a drive through shop (not sure these are a good idea). Being the sole seller als…

As someone who lives in a state with state-run liquor, this is the exact opposite of how it actually plays out. Prices are anywhere from 30-100+% more than across the border in a state without a state-run liquor policy. Because the government has a monopoly there is no competition to drive prices lower and since the government monopoly gets to keep the profit there is no incentive for them to lower prices. Furthermor…

> advocating for the people by working to proved the lowest possible prices

Lowest possible prices for the government purchasers, not for the citizens. For alcohol at least, there are a lot of externalities associated with consumption and so it makes sense for the government to try to price the product with that in mind. In a place like Ontario where the government also runs the health care system, it makes even more sense.

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