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Coding Boot Camps Get the Boot: Why the Industry Is Shutting Down

thetechladder.com

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Re: Coding Boot Camps Get the Boot: Why the Industry Is Shutting Down

#51

Post by nartz »

aecorredor wrote: post #34

"While coding boot camps had many course listings on JavaScript, Ruby, and web development, they had none that covered product management, wireframing, cloud computing, DevOps, or Agile methodologies" I have a 4 year computer science degree and I didn't learn any of the listed topics either, so I'm not sure if the article is implying that other institutions do prepare new grads for these topics. The main advantage I…

My opinion is extremely biased, but the article seems retarded to call these out as any reason why these people are not getting jobs - an author who doesn't know what they are talking about.

"DevOps" is not something you just "teach" to someone who knows 0 about writing software let alone how computers work. Most of these roles today require knowledge of at least a programming language like ruby (Chef), python (ansible), etc.

You dont 'teach' cloud computing either imho. Sure, you can point students to the Amazon CLIs or Web UI Console (or others). Maybe technologies like kubernetes or otherwise would be in this blanket 'cloud computing' (orchestration?) umbrella, but I would imagine very much outside the scope of a bootcamp.

Agile Methodologies? I mean really? Someone drank the koolaid. =D

Re: Coding Boot Camps Get the Boot: Why the Industry Is Shutting Down

#52

Post by jefflombardjr »

thegayngler wrote: post #5

These bootcamps are too basic for starters. They never take you beyond the basics. Secondly, the industry has changed. You need to know more things than you did previously. Even computer science grads aren't necessarily "ready" for the workforce. Education is behind in general instead of ingrained into the community with which it wishes to operate. They are always lagging behind or even way behind. On some level I fe…

> These bootcamps are too basic for starters. They never take you beyond the basics. Secondly, the industry has changed. You need to know more things than you did previously. Even computer science grads aren't necessarily "ready" for the workforce. Education is behind in general instead of ingrained into the community with which it wishes to operate. They are always lagging behind or even way behind.

If any educational institution gave you everything you needed to know, we'd all be DaVinci's. Being too basic isn't a problem if people don't expect the learning to stop after graduation, in fact, I think this is the biggest misconception about boot camps. You're going to need to teach yourself as much as they do to be successful. Same with college.

> On some level I feel as though businesses need to get real and just pick someone for the job even entry level. There is nothing wrong with a business investing in its talent rather than expecting everyone to come in with prepackaged with everything you want them to know. Most of the people hiring these days didn't know how to do any of the stuff people are doing when they come out of bootcamp when they started their careers.

Totally agree, great dev teams, have no problem on boarding people regardless of knowledge set.

Re: Coding Boot Camps Get the Boot: Why the Industry Is Shutting Down

#53

Post by sidlls »

thehardsphere wrote: post #30
stale2002 wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

LOL! So your argument that what makes a person a good software engineer is the whiteboard coding algorithms? That stuff is EASIER to learn than actual software engineering skills. All you got to do is spend a couple months cramming from the book cracking the code interview. You learn that stuff in a singular CS class, that's called data structures and algorithms. You are right about one thing though, if we are in a s…

> So your argument that what makes a person a good software engineer is the whiteboard coding algorithms? No, his argument is that what makes a person a good software engineer is the ability to think about an abstract problem and come up with a solution to it.

That may be his argument, but his example is exactly the kind of "whiteboard coding algorithms" trivia that people mistake for engineering in this industry.

I'd agree with his argument if that's what it is, just not his example.

Re: Coding Boot Camps Get the Boot: Why the Industry Is Shutting Down

#54

Post by skewart »

nowarninglabel wrote: post #43
Sivart13 wrote: post #9

I think it's a big leap from "two large bootcamps have closed" to "the bootcamp industry is shutting down". Like anything else, there was a big race to capture the market once Dev Bootcamp proved it could work, and now the market is correcting itself. No reason to think bootcamps are going to stop existing altogether.

I think there is more information that is let on here. I've talked with some folks at prominent bootcamps who are likely to be shutting their doors or hard pivoting soon if their revenue situation doesn't drastically improve.

Any idea what's causing the revenue problem? I assume it's getting harder to attract students willing to pay for a bootcamp? Is that because fewer people are looking to learn to code than a few years ago? Or because they're learning in different ways other than bootcamps? Or is everyone only wanting to go to the most prestigious bootcamps? Or something else?

Re: Coding Boot Camps Get the Boot: Why the Industry Is Shutting Down

#55

Post by dmitri1981 »

The article fails to mention that both dev boot camp and iron yard were acquired by some large for profit cos. The discussion on HN regarding their closure seemed to highlight that both companies had their quality of teaching severely cut post acquisition which no doubt aided their demise. Also, many of their boot camps were in secondary locations that could not support on-going employment for all their grads

Re: Coding Boot Camps Get the Boot: Why the Industry Is Shutting Down

#56

Post by jefflombardjr »

andrewjl wrote: post #13
nxsynonym wrote: post #2

I'm not all that surprised. The biggest advantage to a Coding Boot Camp is the intense, focused study for the duration of the program - and possibly any industry experience any of the teachers bring (although I'm sure the quality of that experience varies greatly from camp to camp). The biggest downfall I see in the idea behind the Boot Camps is that they are great at pumping out entry level coders, but don't seem to…

Check out https://outco.io which sounds like to covers the parts you find lacking.

This looks like every other boot camp out there. Uses buzzwords like 'pair programming' and stereotypical whiteboard background video. How do you think this differentiates itself from other boot camps? Online/Onsite is not unique.

Re: Coding Boot Camps Get the Boot: Why the Industry Is Shutting Down

#57

Post by brookside »

Bootcamps rode a wave of phenomenal publicity at their inception. Articles in the NYTimes and the like made me aware of Flatiron / General Assembly as alternatives to grad school, which I had just enrolled in at the time.

These "Bootcamps Are Dead" stories will to some degree be self-fulfilling. Regardless of any realities in the junior dev job market, exposure to this wave of (sinking?) submarining would give me great pause were I making the same school decision today.

Re: Coding Boot Camps Get the Boot: Why the Industry Is Shutting Down

#58

Post by eric_b »

Why do people think a 12 week course will make a non-technical person ready for a junior developer role? Most developers I know have years of deep experience with computers before becoming professional programmers. (Things like fixing driver issues, installing linux, patching games etc).

I have several friends who went to bootcamps had no deep technical interest beforehand. They just heard that computer programming was good money, and they enrolled. To me, the ideal bootcamp student would be the person who dabbles with programming or programming-tangential technologies on the side, but just needs that little extra boost. That is a very small number of people if experience is any guide.

I just don't think it's reasonable to go from 0 to junior developer in 12 weeks if you don't have that technical history. It's why you can't become a doctor in 12 weeks, generally. The four year degree programs force exposure to programming and programming-thinking for 4 dedicated years. This is enough to close the gap for non-technical people, but 12 weeks is surely not.

Re: Coding Boot Camps Get the Boot: Why the Industry Is Shutting Down

#59

Post by Kiro »

busterarm wrote: post #11
mtmail wrote: post #3

I noticed a couple (4) "No agencies, recent bootcamp grads, or visa candidates." on this month's "who is hiring?" https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15148885

I count 5, and at least two of those are quite clear about looking to fill a senior position. The other 3 are companies that have a bit of a reputation and I wouldn't even consider working at anyway.

> The other 3 are companies that have a bit of a reputation and I wouldn't even consider working at anyway.

How is that relevant in this context? Regardless of company it's obviously a trend to refuse bootcamp graduates.

Re: Coding Boot Camps Get the Boot: Why the Industry Is Shutting Down

#60

Post by outside1234 »

pascalxus wrote: post #33

I'm not surprised that Google would turn down applicants from boot-camps with less than 3 years of experience. they turn down qualified engineers with over 15+ years of relevant experience.

I suspect turning down engineers with 15+ years of experience is explainable via Google's age-ism, not the actual underlying experience.
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