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If Carpenters Were Hired Like Programmers (2004)

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Re: If Carpenters Were Hired Like Programmers (2004)

#111

Post by Chris2048 »

organsnyder wrote: post #34
rootlocus wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Software is software. The paradigms are the same. The languages have the same roots. What is culture for a programming language anyways? Sure, the tools and frameworks are different, and every language has it's own quirks and uniqueness but they're not as different as you make it sound. If a developer is skilled, these are small differences.

I think that the differences are bigger for inexperienced developers (and experienced ones who don't try to understand the theory underlying their work). A novice PHP developer will (or at least would have 5 years ago) create a messy script with interspersed HTML and PHP, a SQL injection vulnerability or two, and little code organization. A novice Java developer will implement a bunch of patterns they don't understan…

But wait, the implication here is that "the theory underlying their work" is similar for most languages?

Don't Haskell and Java differ significantly wrt Type systems? And the rigid class structures of Java might cause one to build very different programs that you might in a more dynamic language?

Re: If Carpenters Were Hired Like Programmers (2004)

#112

Post by levelist_com »

mightybyte wrote: post #90
martijn_himself wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree reality is probably more subtle that this, but I do feel that there is too much emphasis on public repositories in application processes. It's probably more common for recent graduates to have public repositories than for the majority of senior devs. Then again I'm sure there are other pressures graduates have to deal with that senior devs don't.

I don't know what kind of emphasis you've seen, but being able to look at a public example of code a person has written is IMO the single biggest risk reducer available to a company hiring developers (well, other than actually having worked directly with the person before, which is an order of magnitude or two less common) because it gives me a picture of performance on real world software. Hiring is substantially ab…

Ive been in the game a while now , almost 18 years - 7 as a dev, and still get asked by recruiters generally within the first or second question if i have a github profile. Nope, I moved to BitBucket. Recruiter: never heard of it, what's that?

It'd be nice if tech recruiters actually had a background in tech.

Re: If Carpenters Were Hired Like Programmers (2004)

#113

Post by rootlocus »

Chris2048 wrote: post #110
rootlocus wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So Clojure, Java, Javascript, Haskell and Ruby are all basically the same? Nice try, but we were talking about PHP and Java. Also, for instance, functional paradigm is the same for all functional languages, which is what I meant in the first place. > You suggest skill is generic. I'm suggesting the developer understands the OOP paradigm, knows about design patterns and isn't confused by the small differences in syn…

> Nice try, but we were talking about PHP and Java You started by saying "Software is software", you didn't mean this to imply all languages are similar? > functional paradigm is the same for all functional languages So Haskell and Clojure are similar? > understands the OOP paradigm, knows about design patterns Design patterns differ between languages. And OOP principles too. I don't want to see ConfigurationBuilderF…

> So Haskell and Clojure are similar?

Yes.

> Design patterns differ between languages. And OOP principles too

Not that much compared to paradigms. They're closer to coding styles. Once you understand what encapsulation is and how python lacks visibility modifiers, it's only a matter of using a coding style to compensate.

> "Two languages using the same paradigm are closer to each other" - but this seems tautologically true

Taken out of context, sure, but you excluded the second part. That's why I think Haskell and Closure are similar.

Re: If Carpenters Were Hired Like Programmers (2004)

#114

Post by CyberDildonics »

arjie wrote: post #30

The equivalent the other way. If programmers hired like carpenters are hired made a table: "How long will it take to make this table?" "3 weeks. But we're going to try using this new kind of leg because it's easier to replace with another leg if you don't like it. So it may take 5 weeks." 5 weeks pass "Is the table done?" "Well, no, not really. But now you can have four different legs if you want to. We've also got t…

One of many hidden truths here is that software is expected to scale easily and change easily while physical objects don't have these expectations attached.

Re: If Carpenters Were Hired Like Programmers (2004)

#115

Post by pdimitar »

logicallee wrote: post #73
noway421 wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> what's the most popular kind of wood right now? Exactly. We're putting together a team to make a sink using it. In the second phase we will use wood to build a toilet. Interested? that's actually kinda fun!

>> what's the most popular kind of wood right now? Exactly. We're putting together a team to make a sink using it. In the second phase we will use wood to build a toilet. Interested? >that's actually kinda fun! (years later) ... and that's how I ended up installing toilets in exchange for equity.

> (years later) ... and that's how I ended up installing toilets in exchange for equity.

Holy crap, "intalling toilets" hits too close to home as an analogy. Happens way too often.

Re: If Carpenters Were Hired Like Programmers (2004)

#116

Post by bryanrasmussen »

If programmers were hired the like carpenters:

Q: so you're a programmer, how many years experience?

A: 10

Q: ever make a web application?

A: yes, I did I..

Q: great! you're hired!

A: Uh, don't you want to know what languages, frameworks, backend systems I've used?

Q: what no, you've built web applications. You will come in and do that right away because you built web applications!

A: uh, don't you want to know what my thoughts are on testing, product management methodologies I prefer, team sizes I feel comfortable with?

Q: no, of course not! HELLLOOO, web applications here. They're great, you're a natural!

A: Uhm, what size are these web applications meant to scale up to?

Q: any size that's reasonable of course! The size of web applications that people use! Be here tomorrow we're going to start you off right away!

A: I don't really want this job.

Note: I've never really hired a carpenter, but it seemed like the linked article didn't let the idea that these might be very different occupations get in the way of snark, so why should I?

Re: If Carpenters Were Hired Like Programmers (2004)

#117

Post by mrlyc »

sgift wrote: post #5
martijn_himself wrote: post #3

Could be updated: Interviewer: Could you give us a couple of examples of carpentry projects you have completed in your spare time, and do you have a portfolio of projects you have worked on outside of your day-to-day job? Carpenter: Uhm, what do you mean? Interviewer: I mean like carpentry in your community, or a project you've completed to hone your skills outside work? Carpenter: Oh, I am usually quite tired of ham…

It would be pretty cool if programmers could show their day job programs the way a carpenter can say "I build this" and people could look at it to see its quality. Unfortunately, this is often not possible.

I do this by bringing samples of my code and documentation.

Re: If Carpenters Were Hired Like Programmers (2004)

#118

Post by sigi45 »

rootlocus wrote: post #20
sigi45 wrote: post #11

It makes a difference if a person has 5 years java experience or 5 years php experience only. There is a lot to learn about culture, tools, frameworks etc.

Software is software. The paradigms are the same. The languages have the same roots. What is culture for a programming language anyways? Sure, the tools and frameworks are different, and every language has it's own quirks and uniqueness but they're not as different as you make it sound. If a developer is skilled, these are small differences.

I can switch between languages. But i learned to write code in PHP, Java, C++ and other languaes. There is no necessarity for someone, who is a PHP or Java Developer to switch easily to another language.

It takes a few weeks, month and perhaps 1-2 years for someone and i think it is fair enough to decide to hire an java guy for a java position over an php developer and to ask this in a job interview. It might be also okay to hire some php developer (or vice versa) but dismissing it, that there is a difference, is wrong.

Re: If Carpenters Were Hired Like Programmers (2004)

#119

Post by gaius »

THz-cascade wrote: post #19
pasta wrote: post #13

At my company: Inteviewer: So you are a carpenter? Carpenter: Yes. Inteviewer: Can you make a start fixing that leaky roof over there? We will monitor your skills and might hire you. Carpenter: Done.

This is the way to go. Still do the usual screening and interviews (hopefully without incompetent recruiters in the middle) but then pay the developer fairly for a small project and see how it goes. Repeat if necessary. The only problem I've seen with this approach is where the applicant is legitimately pressured for time by their current work or family issues. Being understanding and working out how to extend the tr…

pay the developer fairly for a small projec

You will not hire anyone currently employed like this. You would be unlikely even to hire a contractor.

Re: If Carpenters Were Hired Like Programmers (2004)

#120

Post by kinos »

cdevs wrote: post #15

I wish we were only hiring experienced developers, hiring right out of school and having a manager that only wants experience out of school people is insane. Do you know what oop is? Have you used git? Have you ever indexed a table column to speed up queries? Any MVC experience? How comfortable are you with the language ? Do you know anything about sql injection? Have you used the inspector on a web browser before? G…

Hi, I'm looking for work. I know all those things and I've done all those things.
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