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Amazon to Build Second HQ in North America

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Re: Amazon to Build Second HQ in North America

#331
post #287

The RFP is rather more interesting than the marketing page: https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/G/01/Anything... The 2nd criterion is basically the total amount of sweet, sweet taxpayer dollars available to subsidize them: Please provide a summary of total incentives offered for the Project by the state/province and local community. In this summary, please provide a brief description of the incentive item,…

what a year do I live in that governments must bow to corpos and politely submit RFP document asking for tax money .... reduction. There was once a story on hackersnews why this (demanding tax cuts) its unethical on much larger scale than race etc. It went like this (forgive my memory, english, and feel free to correct it): There were two states, neighboring, with similar budgets and number of people. They werent ric…

> The best policy for all states and cities in USA is saying: no matter who will you choose, we will NOT give you a subsidy. And if you want to talk about offshore outsourcing, let me rephrase it: all countries in the world should show the A a middle finger in unison.

If we could only get all governments together to conspire against third parties. How could that ever wo grong.

Re: Amazon to Build Second HQ in North America

#332
I'm going to make the case for Toronto, for New York, and for SF / SV. The reason I don't make the case for Vancouver is that it's essentially just a Toronto with a smaller talent pool to draw on from Amazon's perspective. It's like buying the non-M version of a BWM when you're a multi-millionaire. I guess you could do it, but why? Also, I don't understand the Texas or DC tech scene but there might be options here too. Lots of NSA programmers running around and they're working on some complicated datasets.

I think the Toronto case is the strongest, but I think any of the three are good choices.

1. Toronto is the most multicultural city in the world. It is in a country with a flexible, predictable, but different, immigration system, and with a fairly robust financial sector and infrastructure. If Amazon can't get a candidate into America, they can try getting that candidate into Canada instead. This is key. America makes up only 5% of the world's population and politics aside, is no longer an ideal place for a large percentage of the world's population due to racism and hostility towards immigrants / immigration. To attract international talent (including from New England, a short flight away which can be critical for taking care of aging parents) Toronto is by far the best choice in North America. It's more expensive than Ottawa, but more fun and has a number of high quality Universities near by (Waterloo, Toronto, Queens, and others) and compared to NYC or SV much, much cheaper. Vancouver wouldn't be a terrible choice, but there's less of a talent pool to draw from and the housing market is worse there. Toronto's current mayor is very friendly to tech companies, and there is growing focus on bike lanes and mass transit which means commuters from all corners of the GTA could make it into work. Most of the cultural elite (influential journalists, actors, etc) in Canada live in Toronto, which has subtle benefits like getting Amazon into TV shows or interviews through personal connections. Playing outside in the winter kinda sucks in Toronto though, Vancouver area has it made here.

2. New York has a huge pool of highly skilled developers with experience at firms where microseconds are critical. Nobody outgrows New York. It's also a place that has international prestige. An immigrant moving to Seattle or Portland is "moving to America" according to their family whilst an immigrant to New York is "moving to New York" Americans might not understand the huge distinction between the two, but to people in Pakistan or even Canada being able to make a living in New York is proving that you're one of the best in the world. It won't completely make up for the Trump presidency, but it would be a meaningful difference. Also, right next to banks and many important regulators and press people. Tons of American cultural elite as well. One downside of going NYC is that Amazon would have less bargaining power. The city is so huge that the injection of cash and talent matters less than in Toronto or Vancouver, so special concessions are harder to come by.

3. SF / SV is the easy, pricey case. The best machine learning developers live here. Machine learning is critical to Amazon's survival. They have success hiring here, but it would be better if they had HQ2 here. Salaries are much, much higher here, however.

Re: Amazon to Build Second HQ in North America

#334
post #245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. Those tax cuts should be added ON TOP of the income taxes those employees bring in. More business should be more tax revenue = better services for the citizens. > It's not corruption, it's business. When a business is able to make a deal that gets them out of paying taxes they otherwise would legally be required to pay, that's corruption. Sugar coat it all you want, it's regular citizens they are stealing from.

Unless money is being funneled into private politicians’ hands, it’s not corruption. The choice is between amazon + tax breaks and nothing. These cities clearly believe that they’re better off, net net, with Amazon and they’re probably right. This is not at all the same as accepting bribes. There are certainly bad deals out there, but mismanagement is not the same as corruption. Now if you can show that the politicia…

It's a race to the bottom. It results in one state or city that pollutes for the whole country. Governments should set things up so the whole economy benefits, sometimes that means banning defections so that game theory doesn't fuck things up for everyone.

Re: Amazon to Build Second HQ in North America

#335
post #175
post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And anyone wonders why the USA does not have money for healthcare, higher education, high speed rail, etc. etc. I am in West Africa and everyone continually asks about the corruption. At least here it's up front and honest. The guy with the AK-47 just wants $5. In the USA, it's the guys in suits getting billions.

I mean, if you don't like the tax cuts your city government offers Amazon to try and get their headquarter, you can vote them out come the next election.

I'm not arguing for a ban, but here would be the argument: It's clearly unethical, undesirable behavior, but even if a particular municipality didn't like the game, it's tough not to play (much like taking corporate donations for political campaigns). So instead of trying to live the libertarian good life of "Our city is better than that" and losing because someone else has fewer scruples, it is proposed that the practice be banned.

Re: Amazon to Build Second HQ in North America

#336
post #71
post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Kitchener-Waterloo? edit: just thought it would be a suitable talent hub. Not sure why I'm getting downvoted. Maybe Toronto would be more suitable?

RFP says 45 minutes to an airport with direct flights to Seattle, SF, NYC, and Washington DC. I don't know the area but it seems to me that YYZ is too far away to qualify

there is an international airport in Kitchener-Waterloo (YKF)

Re: Amazon to Build Second HQ in North America

#337
post #245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The thing is, those tax cuts are largely offset by income taxes that those employees bring in, along with all of the $ that having a huge corporation like Amazon would bring into the area. It's not corruption, it's business.

No. Those tax cuts should be added ON TOP of the income taxes those employees bring in. More business should be more tax revenue = better services for the citizens. > It's not corruption, it's business. When a business is able to make a deal that gets them out of paying taxes they otherwise would legally be required to pay, that's corruption. Sugar coat it all you want, it's regular citizens they are stealing from.

> more tax revenue = better services for the citizens

Lol.

"When the government is able to collect tax and seize private property without just compensation, it is an indication that the public is ripe for surrender and is consenting to enslavement and legal encroachment. A good and easily quantified indicator of harvest time is the number of public citizens who pay income tax despite an obvious lack of reciprocal or honest service from the government."

--Silent Weapons for Quiet Wars

Re: Amazon to Build Second HQ in North America

#338
post #137

I think an East Coast city definitely makes the most sense. Realistically though, they probably can't get enough land in the ideal spot of NYC/Jersey meaning the next best options are DC, Philly and Atlanta. Baltimore could be a dark horse candidate. There's already a lot of construction going on there courtesy of Under Armour building out a new HQ. Charlotte could be an option as well.

My money would be on D.C. Lots of access to government agencies that could add a lot of AWS business, a major concentration of highly-skilled tech workers and colleges, close to the Washington Post, and a lot of up and coming neighborhoods in the southwest/southeast quadrants of the city. Also wouldn't hurt that it's on the opposite side of the country to add some geographic diversity.

As someone who lives in DC: I'm with you on the DC metro making some sense, but DC itself is probably out. There's not enough green space to build a campus the size of their Seattle HQ anywhere in the city, given how the severe building height limits here would balloon the total required acreage. They might have some options someplace in the suburbs (maybe Arlington, or out along the Silver Line), or they could look at Baltimore: still pretty close to DC, but much cheaper, and with a lot more industrial land ripe for repurposing.

Re: Amazon to Build Second HQ in North America

#339
RFPs are due by Oct 19. My first reaction was "there's no way city and state governments can work together to produce incentive packages that quickly".

On second thought, it makes me wonder if they're shopping for local governments which can be that responsive with an eye on getting stuff done efficiently in the future (permitting, zoning).

Re: Amazon to Build Second HQ in North America

#340
Amazon is planning to hire another 20,000 people in Seattle within 3 years, on top of the 40,000 they currently have there. Then another 50,000 HQ office workers at HQ2, so overall HQ staff is expected double within 5-10 years. (Even if some of the Seattle headcount shifts to HQ2, it'll still be close to a doubling.)

It's mind boggling to me that they foresee their HQ staff doubling; I lack the imagination to guess what all those people are going to be doing. Aside from physical retail, what markets might they be eyeing?

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