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If Carpenters Were Hired Like Programmers (2004)

jasonbock.net

81–90 of 123 posts

Re: If Carpenters Were Hired Like Programmers (2004)

#81
post #2

The article is from 2004. In the meantime, we've seen considerable progress. The mindshare of banging nails with rocks (as opposed to a nailgun or a hammer) has gone up considerably since 2004.

the thing is, you have to use a rock if you want it to run on the browser

Re: If Carpenters Were Hired Like Programmers (2004)

#82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Software is software. The paradigms are the same. The languages have the same roots. What is culture for a programming language anyways? Sure, the tools and frameworks are different, and every language has it's own quirks and uniqueness but they're not as different as you make it sound. If a developer is skilled, these are small differences.

> The paradigms are the same So Clojure, Java, Javascript, Haskell and Ruby are all basically the same? I think damage can be done hammering different languages into the same methodologies.. > If a developer is skilled You suggest skill is generic. If a programmer is smart they can learn new paradigms. Projecting the paradigms they are used to onto new domains can produce problems, least of all the standardisation.

Eh, we picked up a developer with no experience but Erlang, and he's productive in Python and Go only a few months later. Peer coding and good code reviews (and a good attitude) do wonders.

Re: If Carpenters Were Hired Like Programmers (2004)

#83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The paradigms are the same So Clojure, Java, Javascript, Haskell and Ruby are all basically the same? I think damage can be done hammering different languages into the same methodologies.. > If a developer is skilled You suggest skill is generic. If a programmer is smart they can learn new paradigms. Projecting the paradigms they are used to onto new domains can produce problems, least of all the standardisation.

Eh, we picked up a developer with no experience but Erlang, and he's productive in Python and Go only a few months later. Peer coding and good code reviews (and a good attitude) do wonders.

What's "productive"? He's producing Pythonic Python? He can read other peoples code?

If so, sounds like he's smart enough to pick it up.

Re: If Carpenters Were Hired Like Programmers (2004)

#84
post #2

The article is from 2004. In the meantime, we've seen considerable progress. The mindshare of banging nails with rocks (as opposed to a nailgun or a hammer) has gone up considerably since 2004.

Banging with rocks is out of date. We now bang nails with concrete — that way you can cement your banging tool out of any pebbles you like. Sure, sometimes one of the pebbles (like the one that keeps the left side of your banging block straight) falls out and gets lost and you can't bang any nails that day, but that's the price of progress.

Re: If Carpenters Were Hired Like Programmers (2004)

#85
post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This isn't accurate. It is more like: Customer: I want a table with four legs. Dev: Ok, give me 2 days and it is done. after 2 days Here's your particle board table about 1 meter off the ground with seating for 4. Customer: Great, but it would be nice if it could seat 6 sometimes because we sometimes have guests. Dev: Ok, give me half a week. 3 days pass Ok, here's your table for 6, we had to change the material to w…

Haha. The references to Indian developers were funny. But this joke works even if you replace Indians by other developers in US. Remember healthcare.gov fiasco?

I've met the people who were brought in to fix healthcare.gov after the storm of bad. They have some interesting war stories.

Re: If Carpenters Were Hired Like Programmers (2004)

#86
post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This isn't accurate. It is more like: Customer: I want a table with four legs. Dev: Ok, give me 2 days and it is done. after 2 days Here's your particle board table about 1 meter off the ground with seating for 4. Customer: Great, but it would be nice if it could seat 6 sometimes because we sometimes have guests. Dev: Ok, give me half a week. 3 days pass Ok, here's your table for 6, we had to change the material to w…

Haha. The references to Indian developers were funny. But this joke works even if you replace Indians by other developers in US. Remember healthcare.gov fiasco?

It doesn't really. That job was poorly done AND expensive.

Re: If Carpenters Were Hired Like Programmers (2004)

#87
post #2

The article is from 2004. In the meantime, we've seen considerable progress. The mindshare of banging nails with rocks (as opposed to a nailgun or a hammer) has gone up considerably since 2004.

the thing is, you have to use a rock if you want it to run on the browser

Hey, at least the browser rock is smooth nowadays. 10 years ago you would've sliced your hand open just picking it up.

Re: If Carpenters Were Hired Like Programmers (2004)

#88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It depends on if you're hiring the general contractor or the guy to install the cabinet doors.

Yeah, exactly this. The parent is describing a general contractor, not a carpenter. Even general contractors tend to subcontract out the specialized stuff, like designing the house, installing computerized gear, etc. A carpenter knows enough to know not to try and do the electrical work, because he'll probably do it wrong.

You're supposed to know the job above yours. You don't have to be capable or qualified to do it, but you need to be familiar with it.

So yes, I am somewhat describing a general contractor, but not really. A GC both knows and manages the work. A good construction worker generally knows what is going on and can pitch in and help (given the appropriate supervision) when needed.

Or put it this way: good construction workers could be really lousy general contractors, but they choose to stick to one area of speciality and become an expert. Really bad construction workers are extreme experts in one area -- to the point that they are obsessed with trivial bullshit that makes no difference to anything -- and refuse to open their eyes to the bigger picture going on around them. It's a difference of whether you're looking outward to the overall value being provided or looking inward to your own little world.

I've worked with good carpenters. They'd never touch an electrical box or plumb out a system, but they can describe what kinds of things happen when this work is done. They can also tell stories of how folks in those areas run into problems and how they've assisted. The physicality of construction, the fact they're all in the same place, makes for really good carpenters, especially if they've worked various kinds of jobs. In IT a hell of a lot of programmers actively want to be physically separated from the overall work.

You can know about everything involved without having to be able to do it or manage it. And you should.

Re: If Carpenters Were Hired Like Programmers (2004)

#89
post #74
post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please draw the molecular diagram for Cellulose. What if the requirements were a 20% increase in cellular wall strength? Design a new polysaccharide that fulfills this requirement. Select a plant, how would you modify the genome of that plant to begin producing this new cell wall. Given this sequence of basepairs, compute the resulting protein that may be expressed from this sequence. Suppose Xylem was no longer an a…

Wow, as an analogy this is brutally accurate. And suddenly I realize the answer to all 5 questions is "Fuck off, next question" which is why it's essential that I never have less than a year's salary in the bank.

[deleted]

Re: If Carpenters Were Hired Like Programmers (2004)

#90
post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It would be pretty cool if programmers could show their day job programs the way a carpenter can say "I build this" and people could look at it to see its quality. Unfortunately, this is often not possible.

I agree reality is probably more subtle that this, but I do feel that there is too much emphasis on public repositories in application processes. It's probably more common for recent graduates to have public repositories than for the majority of senior devs. Then again I'm sure there are other pressures graduates have to deal with that senior devs don't.

I don't know what kind of emphasis you've seen, but being able to look at a public example of code a person has written is IMO the single biggest risk reducer available to a company hiring developers (well, other than actually having worked directly with the person before, which is an order of magnitude or two less common) because it gives me a picture of performance on real world software. Hiring is substantially about risk reduction because there's a huge amount of stuff you don't know about how the candidate will do. It would be foolish for companies to not take advantage of this potential source of signal. If it's not available, then I would proceed with my normal assessment process. Lack of public code isn't going to disqualify a candidate, but it does help to increase my confidence.
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