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If Carpenters Were Hired Like Programmers (2004)

jasonbock.net

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Re: If Carpenters Were Hired Like Programmers (2004)

#61

Post by uhhhhhhh »

DanielBMarkham wrote: post #56
CM30 wrote: post #4

You forgot the job description beforehand that expects the carpenter to also have experience as a metalworker, welder, plumber, electrician and bricklayer. Oh, we could hire all those roles separately, but hey we want a rockstar ninja capable of everything who's willing to work for less than market rate.

I'd flip that around. The key question is "Have you actually built a house? You didn't have to do all of the work, but have you built a house and understand how all the pieces fit together so you could help us build us a house of our own? Could you help us hire a plumber, know enough about his work to keep an eye on him and help him out while we're out playing golf?" "Heck no. I've spent the last ten years becoming a…

It depends on if you're hiring the general contractor or the guy to install the cabinet doors.

Re: If Carpenters Were Hired Like Programmers (2004)

#62

Post by k__ »

JshWright wrote: post #14
k__ wrote: post #8

Hiring a good carpenter is probably way easier than hiring a good programmer. Carpeting is just more tangible, I think.

Don't hire a carpenter to put down your carpets...

lol,

didn't know that their work isn't called carpeting :D

Re: If Carpenters Were Hired Like Programmers (2004)

#63

Post by k__ »

pmlnr wrote: post #39
k__ wrote: post #8

Hiring a good carpenter is probably way easier than hiring a good programmer. Carpeting is just more tangible, I think.

You haven't actually tried finding good carpenters, have you?

No, I have a friend who is a rather good carpenter.

Re: If Carpenters Were Hired Like Programmers (2004)

#64

Post by DanielBMarkham »

megous wrote: post #60
DanielBMarkham wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd flip that around. The key question is "Have you actually built a house? You didn't have to do all of the work, but have you built a house and understand how all the pieces fit together so you could help us build us a house of our own? Could you help us hire a plumber, know enough about his work to keep an eye on him and help him out while we're out playing golf?" "Heck no. I've spent the last ten years becoming a…

Depends on scale. If they're building a skyscraper, it's ridiculous to want it done from a single person.

Note I didn't say one person does it all. The question was whether or not the person was familiar enough with all of the types of work to be useful across-the-board (even if they weren't an expert in all of those areas).

Even on a skyscraper, you can bet that all the senior folks there understand the basics of most all of the jobs involved. You don't work in construction without understanding the job in general. This is opposed to IT, where it can be common to hide away in some sub-area and never have experience watching and helping other folks do their work. In many large orgs, the vast majority of developers couldn't build a plain-jane web app from scratch. That's pretty whack.

Re: If Carpenters Were Hired Like Programmers (2004)

#65

Post by smnplk »

pmlnr wrote: post #38
Chris2048 wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The paradigms are the same So Clojure, Java, Javascript, Haskell and Ruby are all basically the same? I think damage can be done hammering different languages into the same methodologies.. > If a developer is skilled You suggest skill is generic. If a programmer is smart they can learn new paradigms. Projecting the paradigms they are used to onto new domains can produce problems, least of all the standardisation.

> So Clojure, Java, Javascript, Haskell and Ruby are all basically the same? Basically, yes. You learn to think how, the rest is implementation. Don't get me wrong, it's not an immediate switch, it takes learning and time, but deep inside, the are the same indeed.

No, they are not the same, because they lead you (some more, some less) to different thinking when solving problems. Clojure and java don't have much in common, I think differently when I solve problems in Clojure vs Java. Haskell is also a very different beast. I see languages as frameworks for thinking and developers should embrace that and not fight it. Sure you can code in OO style using Clojure, but language was not designed for that.

Re: If Carpenters Were Hired Like Programmers (2004)

#66

Post by JustSomeNobody »

sgift wrote: post #5
martijn_himself wrote: post #3

Could be updated: Interviewer: Could you give us a couple of examples of carpentry projects you have completed in your spare time, and do you have a portfolio of projects you have worked on outside of your day-to-day job? Carpenter: Uhm, what do you mean? Interviewer: I mean like carpentry in your community, or a project you've completed to hone your skills outside work? Carpenter: Oh, I am usually quite tired of ham…

It would be pretty cool if programmers could show their day job programs the way a carpenter can say "I build this" and people could look at it to see its quality. Unfortunately, this is often not possible.

Shouldn't have to. Should be able to talk intelligently about what you do and that should be enough. If I write SW that interacts with RFID readers, I should be able to talk about the various protocols. I should be able to talk about poll vs push and the benefits (and pains) of both. I should be able to talk about how to architect a performant system that gets the data from the devices, processes it and sends it on to some other device.

I should not have to worry about not being able to show any of that. If the people interviewing me don't understand what I did without me showing them, then I am certainly applying at the wrong company.

Re: If Carpenters Were Hired Like Programmers (2004)

#67

Post by emerongi »

Chris2048 wrote: post #26
pasta wrote: post #13

At my company: Inteviewer: So you are a carpenter? Carpenter: Yes. Inteviewer: Can you make a start fixing that leaky roof over there? We will monitor your skills and might hire you. Carpenter: Done.

Inteviewer: We've decided not to hire you. Carpenter: I'm breaking your roof.

Interviewer: Hey, John?

John: Yes?

Interviewer: Can you fix the roof by tomorrow? This interviewee that was supposed to fix it really fucked it up..

John: But.. I've got to make this architectural blueprint for... sigh fine.

Re: If Carpenters Were Hired Like Programmers (2004)

#68

Post by readittwice »

sigi45 wrote: post #11

It makes a difference if a person has 5 years java experience or 5 years php experience only. There is a lot to learn about culture, tools, frameworks etc.

Maybe Java/PHP isn't the best example, since they are not so different. I think it is quite possible for an experienced dev to switch from to Java to PHP and vice-versa within a few weeks. Especially if you make use of code-reviews or pair-programming.

Let's say you are looking for experience with Machine Learning, Distributed Systems, Databases, Kernel, Graphics, Embedded, etc. IMHO those things are harder to learn than a new programming language or framework (at least after having some experience).

That said, I think this article was more about requirements such as: "at least 3 years experience with X". Where X is just another language/framework/tool. It artificially limits the number of applicants and you might miss some pretty good devs, just because they don't try to apply since either they've only worked with X for one year yet or they've only used tool Y instead of X.

Re: If Carpenters Were Hired Like Programmers (2004)

#69

Post by walshemj »

pmlnr wrote: post #39
k__ wrote: post #8

Hiring a good carpenter is probably way easier than hiring a good programmer. Carpeting is just more tangible, I think.

You haven't actually tried finding good carpenters, have you?

Obvisly at my first job our wood shop where true carpentry ninjas capable of turning out anything in wood you like - they once built a fabulous desk for our ceo for a leaving present it made the fabulously expensive antiques you seem in museums seem like journeyman pieces.

Re: If Carpenters Were Hired Like Programmers (2004)

#70

Post by rcarmo »

rootlocus wrote: post #22
rcarmo wrote: post #7

I grabbed this article and replaced: - "carpenter" with "data scientist" - "brown" with "machine learning" - "walnut" with "AI" and - "rock" with "Kubernetes" It was perfectly up to date regarding my neck of the woods :) (edit: formatting)

I'd like to know what you replaced "nail gun" or "hammer" with.

I was going to go with Hadoop on one of them :)
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