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U.S. House approves proposal to speed the deployment of self-driving cars

reuters.com

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Re: U.S. House approves proposal to speed the deployment of self-driving cars

#61

Post by danblick »

dayaz36 wrote: post #54
euyyn wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Also who's Waymo? You serious? It's Google's self-driving car company.

Was being sarcastic. Googles been working on their self driving cars for nearly a decade and they've only collected a few million miles of data whereas Tesla has BILLIONS of miles of data and they've only started working on their tech a couple years ago. Tesla's tech is way ahead of Google's. Waymo is overrated

Miles of data is not the best metric. If you've ever tried to build a machine learning system you'd recognize some of the issues here. First off, where are the labels? How are you to interpret all that data?

Say Tesla has recorded video of some dude driving down his street in LA and their system detects a car door opening in his data stream. How can Tesla find out whether or not there actually was a car door opening? Human labelers (for billions of miles of data)? Multiple instruments?

If I were designing a system, I'd want a car with extra instruments on it that would help me validate what the primary instruments detected. The idea of just recording a bunch of live traffic seems pretty lame. (You have no way to validate any of the conclusions you draw from the data and hence no way to improve your ability to draw conclusions from the data.)

Did you see the article about Waymos test environment at Castle? That, along with a boatload of simulation, is exactly the kind of testing you need to do to develop this kind of a system.

Has Tesla ever demo'ed their simulation environment or other tests?

Re: U.S. House approves proposal to speed the deployment of self-driving cars

#62

Post by dayaz36 »

danblick wrote: post #61
dayaz36 wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Was being sarcastic. Googles been working on their self driving cars for nearly a decade and they've only collected a few million miles of data whereas Tesla has BILLIONS of miles of data and they've only started working on their tech a couple years ago. Tesla's tech is way ahead of Google's. Waymo is overrated

Miles of data is not the best metric. If you've ever tried to build a machine learning system you'd recognize some of the issues here. First off, where are the labels? How are you to interpret all that data? Say Tesla has recorded video of some dude driving down his street in LA and their system detects a car door opening in his data stream. How can Tesla find out whether or not there actually was a car door opening?…

Not sure why you think simulation environment is more valuable than real world data. Waymo doesn't even have as much data in simulated environment as Tesla does in real world data, which is hilarious.

Re: U.S. House approves proposal to speed the deployment of self-driving cars

#63

Post by thanksgiving »

Sylphine wrote: post #60
nxc18 wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

UPS has 400,000 employees. Autonomous driving would pay itself off very quickly even if one of uber's cars personally murdered every single UPS and FedEx employee. Of course, the issue at play isn't joblessness, but the lack of a safety net for when people lose their jobs. Still, in the u.s., very few people actually starve to death, even when unemployed. Perhaps lack of health care will kill them all. But was their…

Staying with your parents isn't the idyllic life. I know from experience. /// Inb4 you want to held back technology. /// Technology's main focus should be improving peoples quality of living not maximizing profits and replacing employees with robots.

I disagree. Technology should be focused with all things that reduce the need for human labor.

What we need is what gp says: a decent social safety net. It cannot happen as long as we vote for people who want to reduce taxes.

Re: U.S. House approves proposal to speed the deployment of self-driving cars

#64

Post by danblick »

dayaz36 wrote: post #62
danblick wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Miles of data is not the best metric. If you've ever tried to build a machine learning system you'd recognize some of the issues here. First off, where are the labels? How are you to interpret all that data? Say Tesla has recorded video of some dude driving down his street in LA and their system detects a car door opening in his data stream. How can Tesla find out whether or not there actually was a car door opening?…

Not sure why you think simulation environment is more valuable than real world data. Waymo doesn't even have as much data in simulated environment as Tesla does in real world data, which is hilarious.

In a simulation environment you know ground truth. (Where objects actually were vs. what you saw.) You can play the same scenario from slightly different angles. Or different conditions (rain, snow, low light, bright light). You can look at counterfactuals (what would I have seen if I had done X). You can test the behavior of your system without actually setting a computer loose in the real world.

From "real world" recorded data you have none of these things.

This is the difference between observational and experimental data and it's a huge difference.

Re: U.S. House approves proposal to speed the deployment of self-driving cars

#65

Post by csallen »

Sylphine wrote: post #60
nxc18 wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

UPS has 400,000 employees. Autonomous driving would pay itself off very quickly even if one of uber's cars personally murdered every single UPS and FedEx employee. Of course, the issue at play isn't joblessness, but the lack of a safety net for when people lose their jobs. Still, in the u.s., very few people actually starve to death, even when unemployed. Perhaps lack of health care will kill them all. But was their…

Staying with your parents isn't the idyllic life. I know from experience. /// Inb4 you want to held back technology. /// Technology's main focus should be improving peoples quality of living not maximizing profits and replacing employees with robots.

Replacing employees is not the problem. In fact, it's a good thing. It frees people up to do more enjoyable things with their lives.

The problem is that our economic system is unequipped to handle a world in which people aren't expected to work jobs "just because."

Re: U.S. House approves proposal to speed the deployment of self-driving cars

#66

Post by SapphireSun »

"Automakers would have to submit safety assessment reports to regulators, but the bill would not require pre-market approval of advanced vehicle technologies. The measure now goes to the Senate, where a bipartisan group of lawmakers has been working on similar legislation."

You and I both know that without premarket approval, one or more companies are going to get careless and are going to kill people before the technology is ready. It's going to stain public acceptance for a quite necessary technology.

Here's a new medicine we're developing! It's gonna totally work great. The science says it's possible, we just need to work out the kinks while treating hundreds of thousands of people....

Re: U.S. House approves proposal to speed the deployment of self-driving cars

#67

Post by mobilefriendly »

SapphireSun wrote: post #66

"Automakers would have to submit safety assessment reports to regulators, but the bill would not require pre-market approval of advanced vehicle technologies. The measure now goes to the Senate, where a bipartisan group of lawmakers has been working on similar legislation." You and I both know that without premarket approval, one or more companies are going to get careless and are going to kill people before the tech…

Even with government approval, there will be fatal accidents. This approach is better because it DIRECTLY holds automakers liable-- they can't claim immunity because some bureaucrat approved the vehicle. And it keeps politics and technical ignorance out of the development cycle.

Also, 3,000 people die every month on U.S. roads, your medicine analogy is wrong because there is much harm from the current system.

Re: U.S. House approves proposal to speed the deployment of self-driving cars

#68

Post by sokoloff »

fhsjei wrote: post #28
djschnei wrote: post #5

screw the states and their autonomy!

If driving from one state to another, especially for business purposes, doesn't count as interstate commerce I don't know what does. See the United States Constitution (Article I, Section 8, Clause 3): The United States Congress shall have power "to regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes."

Exactly. For airplanes, the FAA is supreme and has consistently smacked down individual state/city initiatives to regulate air traffic (and rightly so, even as I'm a small federal government/states' rights advocate in general).

Re: U.S. House approves proposal to speed the deployment of self-driving cars

#69

Post by ghaff »

mobilefriendly wrote: post #67
SapphireSun wrote: post #66

"Automakers would have to submit safety assessment reports to regulators, but the bill would not require pre-market approval of advanced vehicle technologies. The measure now goes to the Senate, where a bipartisan group of lawmakers has been working on similar legislation." You and I both know that without premarket approval, one or more companies are going to get careless and are going to kill people before the tech…

Even with government approval, there will be fatal accidents. This approach is better because it DIRECTLY holds automakers liable-- they can't claim immunity because some bureaucrat approved the vehicle. And it keeps politics and technical ignorance out of the development cycle. Also, 3,000 people die every month on U.S. roads, your medicine analogy is wrong because there is much harm from the current system.

One issue is this.

Assume self-driving cars exist at some point. Assume they reduce fatalities by 90 percent. Ignore injuries. Now "only" 3,000 people are being killed by autonomous vehicles because "Hey, software isn't perfect and stuff happens." How many consumer products today kill that many people a year and the public is basically OK with it?

I'm not saying that the companies shouldn't make reasonable payments as a cost of doing business but if Ford manufacturing defects today were to kill 1,000 people a year they'd be sued out of existence.

Re: U.S. House approves proposal to speed the deployment of self-driving cars

#70

Post by makomk »

dayaz36 wrote: post #58
danblick wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> they've already put in the hardware necessary for FSD so when the software is ready a simple OTA software update is all that's necessary for you're car to have full L5 autonomy That's bull. Every other company working on fully autonomous driving is using Lidar for obstacle detection, but Tesla's cars have none (only radar and cameras). I see no reason to think their software is any better than anyone else's (in fac…

> I see no reason to think their software is any better than anyone else's (in fact I would say Waymo almost certainly ahead of them there) Waymo has 3 million miles of self driving data. Tesla has 3 BILLION. Perhaps that can be a reason?

Waymo can collect full video and sensor data from all the miles its cars drive. Tesla can collect some high-level logs. It's just not the same thing at all.
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