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In Defense of Amy Wax’s Defense of Bourgeois Values

heterodoxacademy.org

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Re: In Defense of Amy Wax’s Defense of Bourgeois Values

#51
post #46

Let's not get bogged down by the all cultures are not equal strawman. That is not at all the key point here. Amy Wax/OP's argument is problematic because it conflates very different things using a subtly disingenuous argument. She starts off by saying something completely uncontroversial: kids from stable marriages do well in school. But she then plays on the audiences implicit biases to imply -- but not explicitly a…

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Re: In Defense of Amy Wax’s Defense of Bourgeois Values

#52
post #7

If 'all cultures are not equal' is a false statement then we're stating 'all cultures are equal' which I interpret as saying there is no metric by which we can measure the 'goodness' or 'effectiveness' of a culture. So let's accept the statement 'all cultures are equal' at face value: all cultures are equal and therefore there exists no metric for measuring 'goodness' or 'effectiveness.' If C(now) captures my current…

Good and bad is in the eye of the beholder and what you value. Is American culture (a loaded term because American culture is the product of numerous sub-cultures) better than all other cultures because of our economic strength? If not, then what are the objective measures that define a "good" culture. I'm very glad slavery doesn't exist, because I value equality and freedom. Yet still, I'd ask who is the authority t…

Frankly, a world in which we are not confident enough to say that slavery is worse than freedom, is a dystopia. It's valid to talk about difficulties of analysis, fragmented values, fallacies, edge cases, caveats, caution etc, but we cannot and should not abdicate from judgment.

Re: In Defense of Amy Wax’s Defense of Bourgeois Values

#53
post #7

If 'all cultures are not equal' is a false statement then we're stating 'all cultures are equal' which I interpret as saying there is no metric by which we can measure the 'goodness' or 'effectiveness' of a culture. So let's accept the statement 'all cultures are equal' at face value: all cultures are equal and therefore there exists no metric for measuring 'goodness' or 'effectiveness.' If C(now) captures my current…

You have a good point, but the next sentence clearly states the metric: "Or at least they are not equal in preparing people to be productive in an advanced economy." It's not a statement about the artistic or spritual value of cultures, only their ability to create economically productive individuals, which is easy to measure.

Re: In Defense of Amy Wax’s Defense of Bourgeois Values

#54

"Nor are the single-parent, antisocial habits, prevalent among some working-class whites; the anti-“acting white” rap culture of inner-city blacks; the anti-assimilation ideas gaining ground among some Hispanic immigrants" Already you lost me. There are plenty of single parents out of wedlock children in very white states like West Virginia, Kentucky, etc. How is rap culture or black people responsible for the action…

This is not thinly veiled racism. What the author was ineloquently trying to point out is simple. African American's have been screwed by the system and so they have been taught not only distrust the system, but also to resent authority. Furthermore, these communities are now self-seggragating. Where at one time there was a vision/dream/fantasy that African Americans and Whites were converging toward the same destinations. We would all end up in suburbs, or brownstones, ala the Cosby's.

At some point African Americans, with encouragement through identity politics, perhaps rightly who am I to say, shifted toward wanting their own identity.

Now when you are raised to resent authority, and to live in your own subculture, you are cutting yourself off from the available avenues for success. Chances are many of your bosses will be white, many of your teachers and professors will be white. If you are taught to resent and discount them, you are at an immediate disadvantage. You have to listen to your boss, or at least give them a fair shot to make a living and advance. When you start your job as an adversary you cannot get power through the avenues readily available in broader society.

This is the author's point. Without the shared "bourgeois" values, as she calls it, makes succeeding very hard.

I will also note that there may be other ways to solve this problem aside from sharing those values.

Re: In Defense of Amy Wax’s Defense of Bourgeois Values

#55

Here is a follow-up article written by one of the 33 members of the University of Pennsylvania Law School faculty to sign a letter criticizing Amy Wax: Don’t Care if Amy Wax Is Politically Incorrect; I Do Care that She’s Empirically Incorrect https://heterodoxacademy.org/2017/09/03/i-dont-care-if-amy-w...

What concerns me is that people act like she doesn't have the right to write her opinion (it clearly is just her opinion; it was published to the opinion section), without her facing repercussion.

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Re: In Defense of Amy Wax’s Defense of Bourgeois Values

#56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not attributing this to you, but you could deploy your argument against abolishing slavery. > How do you propose to raise up a culture that doesn't value diligent hard work Which culture? Don't be abstract. Name what culture you think doesn't value hard work and I will and we'll see if I can't find a counterexample.

I prefer positive examples. It's no secret that the Jewish people have done so phenomenally well, despite two millennia of persecution, because of their strong values of hard work, family, and creativity.

Many, if not all, successful cultures have a tradition of helping others overcome difficulties. Maybe that's what we should be looking at, rather than making too much of a deal of the fate of the excellent, who are generally well-able to look after themselves. Society is not a zero-sum game, unless we choose to play it that way.

Re: In Defense of Amy Wax’s Defense of Bourgeois Values

#57

Here is a follow-up article written by one of the 33 members of the University of Pennsylvania Law School faculty to sign a letter criticizing Amy Wax: Don’t Care if Amy Wax Is Politically Incorrect; I Do Care that She’s Empirically Incorrect https://heterodoxacademy.org/2017/09/03/i-dont-care-if-amy-w...

Thanks for posting. The original article is clearly hyper-racist--how unbelievable that the only cultural tradition suited for the 21st century also just happens to be the one which you hail from--but also just weirdly certain about things that deserve no certainty.

Re: In Defense of Amy Wax’s Defense of Bourgeois Values

#58

Here is a follow-up article written by one of the 33 members of the University of Pennsylvania Law School faculty to sign a letter criticizing Amy Wax: Don’t Care if Amy Wax Is Politically Incorrect; I Do Care that She’s Empirically Incorrect https://heterodoxacademy.org/2017/09/03/i-dont-care-if-amy-w...

The response makes the situation even more absurd. Suddenly it is OK to denounce a professor because he/she is not correct from someones point of view? Isn't a debate about what is real and what is not the base for any science?

I would understand, but not be happy for, that professors are called for not being politically correct. I can't understand denouncing for not being correct by someone's argumentation.

I believe more and more that social justice and seeking for truth are not compatible.

Universities must choose between TRUTH or Social Justice, not both: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kaQ-ZF9S3uk

Re: In Defense of Amy Wax’s Defense of Bourgeois Values

#59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The only way to accomplish the latter is to pull the excellent down to the level of mediocrity or worse. How do you propose to raise up a culture that doesn't value creativity and hard work, for example, to the level of success of one that does. Culture is much more than what food you eat and music you listen to. This reminds me of a famous Tocqueville quote: There is in fact a manly and legitimate passion for equali…

Not attributing this to you, but you could deploy your argument against abolishing slavery. > How do you propose to raise up a culture that doesn't value diligent hard work Which culture? Don't be abstract. Name what culture you think doesn't value hard work and I will and we'll see if I can't find a counterexample.

>Not attributing this to you, but you could deploy your argument against abolishing slavery.

I don't follow. The quote strongly applies that freedom is preferable to slavery even if some would want otherwise.

Re: In Defense of Amy Wax’s Defense of Bourgeois Values

#60
post #7

If 'all cultures are not equal' is a false statement then we're stating 'all cultures are equal' which I interpret as saying there is no metric by which we can measure the 'goodness' or 'effectiveness' of a culture. So let's accept the statement 'all cultures are equal' at face value: all cultures are equal and therefore there exists no metric for measuring 'goodness' or 'effectiveness.' If C(now) captures my current…

"Culture' is an exceptionally poorly defined term, and there is no hope of applying any kind of rigor here. Most of the time it's shorthand for a constellation of behaviors that a) exist independently of each other across cultural groups, and b) aren't actually as consistent in practice as one might think.
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