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The fertility of the older mind

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Re: The fertility of the older mind

#51

Post by HarryHirsch »

ericd wrote: post #43
Karrot_Kream wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm guessing the OP is being downvoted, but I'm not sure why. OP is right. Even in East Asia, plenty of people learn Japanese to watch anime, Chinese to enjoy Chinese classics, medieval stories, CPop, Korean for KPop, etc, etc. South Asia has a very rich intellectual tradition in dozens of languages, and a thriving (albeit scrappy) industry of film in local languages. Don't forget the time-honored trope of learning E…

Do you know if multilingualism is more common in England, Australia, or New Zealand? I've got the (maybe mistaken) impression that it's just not valued as highly in the English Commonwealth as in other countries.

There's always been a love-hate relationship between England and France. Some Englishmen are Gallophiles, others avovedly not. Note: this is about French culture, its literature and way of life, of which French language is a part, not French language itself.

Re: The fertility of the older mind

#52

Post by HarryHirsch »

Mediterraneo10 wrote: post #40
jdcarter wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Plenty of us do learn other languages purely out of curiosity. I've been studying Japanese for the last 9 months for that reason. However it's difficult to immerse myself in spoken Japanese because, where I live, I have to go out of my way to meet up with native speakers--that's the point the parent poster was making.

> Where I live, I have to go out of my way to meet up with native speakers--that's the point the parent poster was making. The point would still be wrong. Plenty of people learn a foreign language without the ability to have much contact with native speakers. Eastern Europeans have been keen on picking up Latin American Spanish, but it’s mostly watching telenovelas or falling in love with music from there, not actual…

Indeed. People learn Latin, of which there are preciously few speakers.

Re: The fertility of the older mind

#53

Post by pasquinelli »

Mediterraneo10 wrote: post #25
fnovd wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Keep in mind that Americans live in a country where you can drive for hundreds of miles in any direction and still end up somewhere where English is spoken. We can hop around from state to state and opportunity to opportunity without having to take the time to learn a new language. The US is not Europe.

Yours is a typical American reaction that suggests that others learn foreign languages only because they might have to communicate after driving a short distance. In fact, Europeans have been able for centuries to communicate with neighbouring countries in their own language or rudimentarily known lingua francas without having to expend effort of picking up a new language. And yet, they still often decide to learn a…

plenty of people do try to learn a second language. that's why apps like duolingo are popular. but language is a medium for exchange, and if you have no one to practice with i don't think you'll really get it. of course, i only speak english myself.

you would really trust yourself to translate a film after picking up a language without ever speaking it with anyone?

Re: The fertility of the older mind

#54

Post by slavik81 »

wavefunction wrote: post #5
kevmo wrote: post #4

I am 33, and I have paid a lot of anecdotal attention to what seems to keep my brain fresh, i.e. able to still learn new skills at a rapid clip. Just by way of credentials: I was a successful lawyer for a few years of my 20s (rising to level of federal law clerk), but then taught myself to program and have been working as a professional programmer since shortly before my 30th birthday. Even though I am on the older s…

You're 33, you're not on the 'older side of the programmer market.' If anyone tells you that, I suggest you take a long hard look at who they actually are.

Do you have a source for that? As far as I can piece together by going through the 2016 and 2017 StackOverflow developer surveys, the median professional developer appears to be ~30yo, with ~8 years professional experience.

Re: The fertility of the older mind

#55

Post by sjg007 »

delinka wrote: post #36
sjg007 wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some kids are less inhibited and scared but some aren't and they need active help to get through the anxiety. I think there is a genetic component at play because how else is that learned behavior.

As a parent, you can inhibit your children as toddlers by telling them "no!" all the time. Then, when it comes time to learn or be social, they now have inhibitions to overcome. That's not to say there's no genetic component (my son, $deity bless him, has this anxiety/fear of lots of things - we're honestly not sure if we're unaware of some environmental cause, or if he's fighting genetics...)

Sure, lots of "noes" might reinforce anxiety but I think some kids are immune to it.

Re: The fertility of the older mind

#56

Post by logfromblammo »

HarryHirsch wrote: post #51
ericd wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you know if multilingualism is more common in England, Australia, or New Zealand? I've got the (maybe mistaken) impression that it's just not valued as highly in the English Commonwealth as in other countries.

There's always been a love-hate relationship between England and France. Some Englishmen are Gallophiles, others avovedly not. Note: this is about French culture , its literature and way of life, of which French language is a part, not French language itself.

I see it more as an intense sibling rivalry between Britannia and Marianne. Sometimes they have scratching, hissing, spitting cat-fights. Sometimes they sneak into the other's bedroom and surreptitiously fart on all the pillows. And sometimes they just have each other's back, with no questions asked.

Re: The fertility of the older mind

#57

Post by chrononaut »

expertentipp wrote: post #14
gopalv wrote: post #3

> Or perhaps children are simply less inhibited and aren’t so scared about making mistakes. Struck a chord there - because I had come to the same conclusion of sorts, about my ability to practice activities in public. Riding a bicycle is a fairly hard thing to learn and very easy to practice (from my experience), but learning to do that when everyone around is falling off them was much less of a struggle than trying…

I cannot resist from a sarcastic comment. I find it cute when Americans claim they are "learning a foreign language". Currently I live in a 5th country. Each of them had completely different language, only two were from the same language family. I had no knowledge of English until I had been ~18.

> I find it cute when Americans claim they are "learning a foreign language"

I am not sure I understand the point being made here or through some of your other replies. What does your experience being in many different countries with different common languages have anything to do with Americans claiming they are trying to learn a foreign language? I find it no different than anyone else claiming they're trying to learn a foreign language?

Are you implying Americans cannot learn a foreign language or that it's more difficult due to the lower chance of exposure to those languages, lack of necessity to learn those languages, or lower probability of encountering others whose native language is not English? If so, I would likely agree.

Oddly your supporting statements counter what I describe because I do not know your nationality and you could be American, having moved when you were much younger.

Re: The fertility of the older mind

#58

Post by WalterBright »

hathawsh wrote: post #38

As a child I was obsessively aware of other people's opinions of me, so I was afraid to make mistakes. Today, I am much better at putting myself in the learning mindset because I have learned a basic truth: learning is essentially the same as temporarily making a fool of myself, but in a safe place . That's how we all learned to walk, talk, and read, after all. If we can learn such complex skills as those then we can…

> As a child I was obsessively aware of other people's opinions of me

1. Young people care what others think of them

2. Middle aged people don't care what others think of them

3. Old people realize that nobody thinks about them

Re: The fertility of the older mind

#59

Post by cgag »

Karrot_Kream wrote: post #34
Mediterraneo10 wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yours is a typical American reaction that suggests that others learn foreign languages only because they might have to communicate after driving a short distance. In fact, Europeans have been able for centuries to communicate with neighbouring countries in their own language or rudimentarily known lingua francas without having to expend effort of picking up a new language. And yet, they still often decide to learn a…

I'm guessing the OP is being downvoted, but I'm not sure why. OP is right. Even in East Asia, plenty of people learn Japanese to watch anime, Chinese to enjoy Chinese classics, medieval stories, CPop, Korean for KPop, etc, etc. South Asia has a very rich intellectual tradition in dozens of languages, and a thriving (albeit scrappy) industry of film in local languages. Don't forget the time-honored trope of learning E…

I think the effort to reward ratio is much lower if you're a native English speaker and especially an American.

Re: The fertility of the older mind

#60

Post by wavefunction »

slavik81 wrote: post #54
wavefunction wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're 33, you're not on the 'older side of the programmer market.' If anyone tells you that, I suggest you take a long hard look at who they actually are.

Do you have a source for that? As far as I can piece together by going through the 2016 and 2017 StackOverflow developer surveys, the median professional developer appears to be ~30yo, with ~8 years professional experience.

Don't you think there might be some implicit bias relying solely on a StackOverflow survey?

My source is that I know plenty of developers working in their 30s, 40s, 50s, and 60, which is anecdotal for you but reality for me.

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