China’s example is massive. China’s success has proven that countries can succeed without adopting western liberal freedoms. In fact, success adopting only a small subset of economic and personal freedoms, and none of the political freedoms. The economy is good, the state is stable.. Proof of concept for non-liberal systems. This means freedoms need to be argued for on their own merits. Free speech for its own sake.…
Leaked document: EU Presidency calls for massive internet filtering
101–110 of 147 posts
Re: Leaked document: EU Presidency calls for massive internet filtering
#102Earlier quoted context omitted.
There are times i wonder if politicians use EU as a "trump card". This in the sense of getting it into a EU directive and then turning around to the nation, stating as it is part of an EU directive their hands are tied...
They definitely do that in Germany.
Re: Leaked document: EU Presidency calls for massive internet filtering
#103China’s example is massive. China’s success has proven that countries can succeed without adopting western liberal freedoms. In fact, success adopting only a small subset of economic and personal freedoms, and none of the political freedoms. The economy is good, the state is stable.. Proof of concept for non-liberal systems. This means freedoms need to be argued for on their own merits. Free speech for its own sake.…
It's not like the USA has ever had unlimited free speech; it's still illegal to shout 'fire' in a crowded building or make certain kinds of threats (generally the specific kind.) China thinks it should be illegal to say something that threatens the stability of the governing party as an institution, so they control information more heavily. But it's not yet clear what they've proven in the past 60-odd years. Remember…
It is very hard to prosecute someone based on threats. You have to be able to prove intent to follow through.
Re: Leaked document: EU Presidency calls for massive internet filtering
#104Non-EU readers should bear in mind that the presidency of the EU is much much weaker than that of, say, the US. It's rotated around the countries on a schedule, and has mainly agenda-setting authority. That is, countries who hold the presidency will use it to try to get movement on some issues that they care about, but it doesn't have anywhere close to enough power to get something passed which the other member state…
Never underestimate that.
Re: Leaked document: EU Presidency calls for massive internet filtering
#105China’s example is massive. China’s success has proven that countries can succeed without adopting western liberal freedoms. In fact, success adopting only a small subset of economic and personal freedoms, and none of the political freedoms. The economy is good, the state is stable.. Proof of concept for non-liberal systems. This means freedoms need to be argued for on their own merits. Free speech for its own sake.…
Re: Leaked document: EU Presidency calls for massive internet filtering
#106Earlier quoted context omitted.
> everyone seems to agree that Facebook et. al's censorship of objectionable content is great Hardly. Especially on the left. Including such issues as the ban on breastfeeding photos, ban on trans people using their names, and widespread failure to ban hate speech. (I'm sure I've seen one case of someone recieving a pile of death threats, reporting them, getting told they were "not offensive", then reposting them as…
Just because they advocate freedom to express those ideas does not mean they advocate freedom of speech as a whole. Talking about anything not in the liberal vogue right now opens one up to a world of hurt that wasn't as prevalent even 10 years ago. Bring up being against draconian gun control and, depending on where you live and how large your social circle is, you might get a reputation for being a bunch of things…
Well this sounds unfortunate ...
> might get a reputation for being a bunch of things you're not
.. but that's just other people's free speech?
> I'm often seen as a conservative for bringing up the fact that violent crime in America is down
True, and also free speech. I'm slightly surprised this labels you as a conservative.
I'm not really seeing the "world of hurt", just a world of other people's free speech?
Re: Leaked document: EU Presidency calls for massive internet filtering
#107China’s example is massive. China’s success has proven that countries can succeed without adopting western liberal freedoms. In fact, success adopting only a small subset of economic and personal freedoms, and none of the political freedoms. The economy is good, the state is stable.. Proof of concept for non-liberal systems. This means freedoms need to be argued for on their own merits. Free speech for its own sake.…
It's not like the USA has ever had unlimited free speech; it's still illegal to shout 'fire' in a crowded building or make certain kinds of threats (generally the specific kind.) China thinks it should be illegal to say something that threatens the stability of the governing party as an institution, so they control information more heavily. But it's not yet clear what they've proven in the past 60-odd years. Remember…
I don't think so:
>..."shouting fire in a crowded theater" refers to an outdated legal standard. At one point, the law criminalized such speech, which created a "clear and present danger." But since 1969, for speech to break the law, it can’t merely lead others to dangerous situations. It must directly encourage others to commit specific criminal actions of their own.
http://civil-liberties.yoexpert.com/civil-liberties-general/...
Re: Leaked document: EU Presidency calls for massive internet filtering
#108Earlier quoted context omitted.
Even the "liberal" states have never had unlimited freedom of speech and broadcast to the same extent as internet libertarians would imagine. The ECHR Article 10 recognises this: "1. Everyone has the right to freedom of expression. This right shall include freedom to hold opinions and to receive and impart information and ideas without interference by public authority and regardless of frontiers. This article shall n…
Sheesh! the ECHR's phrasing is awful. ..The protection of morals? I agree though. They haven't. Even in countries with a high regard for free speech, there are exceptions. Nor is internet censorship the end of democracy. But, directionality is important in politics. China provides an alternative example, that breaks many of the "rules" entirely. You can have a great firewall. China does. It's doing OK. Why can't Turk…
That's there to allow a ban on porn. Which the US has as well, despite not having a similar clause.
Article 10 is comparatively well drafted. It's Article 8's nebulous "family life" that's the problem, with all sorts of surprising implications. It's as bad a drafting mistake as the US's 2nd amendment.
Re: Leaked document: EU Presidency calls for massive internet filtering
#109Re: Leaked document: EU Presidency calls for massive internet filtering
#110Earlier quoted context omitted.
There are times i wonder if politicians use EU as a "trump card". This in the sense of getting it into a EU directive and then turning around to the nation, stating as it is part of an EU directive their hands are tied...
Oh they could, and it might be easier since as far as I know, the general population has very little influence over who gets to sit in the EU government.
It's really no more removed than any US cabinet member, especially if you figure in the electoral college–yes, that's rather symbolic. But the difference to electing a parliament which elects the executive in the EU member state is still rather small.