The fertility of the older mind • Hacker News Board

Re: The fertility of the older mind

#21

Post by pacaro » Wed, Sep 06, 2017, 4:49 PM UTC

koolba wrote: post #10

gopalv wrote: post #3

> Or perhaps children are simply less inhibited and aren’t so scared about making mistakes. Struck a chord there - because I had come to the same conclusion of sorts, about my ability to practice activities in public. Riding a bicycle is a fairly hard thing to learn and very easy to practice (from my experience), but learning to do that when everyone around is falling off them was much less of a struggle than trying…

Learning a language (spoken, not programming) is similar. If you're willing to sound like an idiot with a bad accent, constantly messing up words and parts of speech, it's easy to get immersed. If you're self conscious it's significantly more difficult.

My step father, I his 60s, took his schoolboy French, that he hadn't used in over 40 years, and turned it into a decent conversational level simply by not caring about how bad he was but just going for it.

Re: The fertility of the older mind

#22

Post by mseebach » Wed, Sep 06, 2017, 5:03 PM UTC

koolba wrote: post #10

gopalv wrote: post #3

> Or perhaps children are simply less inhibited and aren’t so scared about making mistakes. Struck a chord there - because I had come to the same conclusion of sorts, about my ability to practice activities in public. Riding a bicycle is a fairly hard thing to learn and very easy to practice (from my experience), but learning to do that when everyone around is falling off them was much less of a struggle than trying…

Learning a language (spoken, not programming) is similar. If you're willing to sound like an idiot with a bad accent, constantly messing up words and parts of speech, it's easy to get immersed. If you're self conscious it's significantly more difficult.

There's probably a corollary to that: first you have to get comfortable, but to get really good (fluent) you probably have to get pretty self conscious. It seems to me that most adults learning a new language will retain a fairly heavy accent and some clumsiness more or less permanently (while of course being perfectly articulate) unless they work really hard to get rid of it.

Re: The fertility of the older mind

#23

Post by DamonHD » Wed, Sep 06, 2017, 5:08 PM UTC

kevmo wrote: post #4

I am 33, and I have paid a lot of anecdotal attention to what seems to keep my brain fresh, i.e. able to still learn new skills at a rapid clip. Just by way of credentials: I was a successful lawyer for a few years of my 20s (rising to level of federal law clerk), but then taught myself to program and have been working as a professional programmer since shortly before my 30th birthday. Even though I am on the older s…

You kids today! I just turned 50! B^>

Yes, always be trying to do at least one new thing. At the moment I'm on a new old thing, enhancing a Web site with very slightly more daring CSS, and also getting better performance from my solar-powered RPi2 than I seem to be able to get from CloudFlare's state-of-the art monster operation! B^>

Re: The fertility of the older mind

#24

Post by DamonHD » Wed, Sep 06, 2017, 5:11 PM UTC

matt2000 wrote: post #9

As I get older it gets much much harder to feel stupid at something new when you know what it feels like to be very good at something else. This I feel is the key reason people stop picking up new skills, it feels miserable to be back at a beginner level and so much more satisfying to do something you’re proficient at. However, if you can recognize this and reset your expectations then you will probably find you have…

Actually I read your opening line the opposite way you intended, and agreed with my version of it!

I find myself less stressed by inevitable failures as I know that I have already proved myself in a number of ways, so anyone who infers idiocy from my learning stumbles may themselves be the idiot... %-P

Re: The fertility of the older mind

#25

Post by Mediterraneo10 » Wed, Sep 06, 2017, 5:13 PM UTC

fnovd wrote: post #20

expertentipp wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I cannot resist from a sarcastic comment. I find it cute when Americans claim they are "learning a foreign language". Currently I live in a 5th country. Each of them had completely different language, only two were from the same language family. I had no knowledge of English until I had been ~18.

Keep in mind that Americans live in a country where you can drive for hundreds of miles in any direction and still end up somewhere where English is spoken. We can hop around from state to state and opportunity to opportunity without having to take the time to learn a new language. The US is not Europe.

Yours is a typical American reaction that suggests that others learn foreign languages only because they might have to communicate after driving a short distance. In fact, Europeans have been able for centuries to communicate with neighbouring countries in their own language or rudimentarily known lingua francas without having to expend effort of picking up a new language. And yet, they still often decide to learn a new languages because of cultural interest in that country (films, music). Mere intellectual curiosity is a driver for a lot of people, there is no reason that that can’t apply to the USA as well.

Re: The fertility of the older mind

#26

Post by allsunny » Wed, Sep 06, 2017, 5:13 PM UTC

The best time to have learned something new was 10 years ago. The second best time is now.

Re: The fertility of the older mind

#27

Post by okreallywtf » Wed, Sep 06, 2017, 5:21 PM UTC

gopalv wrote: post #3

> Or perhaps children are simply less inhibited and aren’t so scared about making mistakes. Struck a chord there - because I had come to the same conclusion of sorts, about my ability to practice activities in public. Riding a bicycle is a fairly hard thing to learn and very easy to practice (from my experience), but learning to do that when everyone around is falling off them was much less of a struggle than trying…

It struck a chord with me too. I'm finding in my 30's a lack of fear (or an ability to manage it) that I didn't have when I was younger that makes me want to seek out new experiences and learn new things more in some ways than I did when I was in my teens and 20's (and more "pliable"). This research makes me feel good about my chances and about the benefits that could come with learning new things.

Re: The fertility of the older mind

#28

Post by okreallywtf » Wed, Sep 06, 2017, 5:25 PM UTC

sireat wrote: post #13

I think the article paints too rosy a picture for older minds. Yes you can learn things as you get older but the bar for your achievements gets lower and lower as you age. Let's take chess: There are no cases of a novice starting to learn at the age of 25 and becoming a grandmaster. You need to do some of that deliberate practice at an early age. I suspect the case is the same for math,programming, violin playing etc…

I think that becoming a "grandmaster" of anything is probably outside of the scope of this research as that is a whole other bucket of worms (probably).

And who knows how the prevailing wisdom that you can't teach an old dog new tricks affected the number of people who chose to try to become a grandmaster? Maybe your priorities change when you are older and it has nothing or less to do with raw ability?

Re: The fertility of the older mind

#29

Post by okreallywtf » Wed, Sep 06, 2017, 5:26 PM UTC

One thing I've been trying to do lately is constantly be learning a new juggling trick. For years I just did what I could already do (which wasn't much, but 100% more than people who don't juggle at all), but I've been enjoying breaking down coordination barriers with new tricks (even simple ones) that are similar to things I have done but just different enough to mess my mind up.

Re: The fertility of the older mind

#30

Post by kirse » Wed, Sep 06, 2017, 5:27 PM UTC

kevmo wrote: post #4

I am 33, and I have paid a lot of anecdotal attention to what seems to keep my brain fresh, i.e. able to still learn new skills at a rapid clip. Just by way of credentials: I was a successful lawyer for a few years of my 20s (rising to level of federal law clerk), but then taught myself to program and have been working as a professional programmer since shortly before my 30th birthday. Even though I am on the older s…

learn new skills at a rapid clip

The secret is definitely to practice, I've found an even bigger shortcut is to convince/pay/beg an expert to be your coach or mentor. And once they are your coach, demonstrate that you respect their feedback by obeying when they tell you to update your approach.

As they say, perfect practice makes perfect.