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Why HackerRank and other coding tests are ageist

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Re: Why HackerRank and other coding tests are ageist

#31

Post by joncrocks »

erikbern wrote: post #19

I interview 20-30 people per week and send most of them Hackerrank tests. I'm a big proponent of vetting that people can write code, but 99% of the questions on HR are waaaay too "algorithmic". Had to go through almost all of them to find a few tests that are not about graph algos or dynamic programming – finally found a question that was based on regular expressions and a few other ones that I think are a bit more r…

We (the company I work for) use Codility for some of our roles. I think you can add your own tasks/questions.

Re: Why HackerRank and other coding tests are ageist

#32

Post by jopsen »

erikbern wrote: post #19

I interview 20-30 people per week and send most of them Hackerrank tests. I'm a big proponent of vetting that people can write code, but 99% of the questions on HR are waaaay too "algorithmic". Had to go through almost all of them to find a few tests that are not about graph algos or dynamic programming – finally found a question that was based on regular expressions and a few other ones that I think are a bit more r…

Hmm, pretty sure you can add your own questions...

I like to add simple coding tasks, multiple choice stuff, and a free form text with 500 chars to explain something..

Re: Why HackerRank and other coding tests are ageist

#33

Post by perlpimp »

carlmr wrote: post #4

> Exactly on point. Also one gripe I have with hackerrank (I did some of the challenges to brush up on some language knowledge), is that a lot of the questions are poorly designed and from obvious amateurs. I still think that neither whiteboarding nor hackerrank selects for good developers. In the end you get people that studied hard to solve a certain class of problem that you'll never need in the real world. It's w…

I get idea that these questions are exactly same from that you get from clients and incompetent bosses, where you expected by other side to fill the missing bits and show your brilliant intuition to solve the right problem.

they are entertaining to play with(solve), though i haven't encountered any serious algo problems during my line of work in 15 years. my friend, game coder, always does.

Re: Why HackerRank and other coding tests are ageist

#34

Post by klodolph »

pizzaman09 wrote: post #11
jordanpg wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agree, but what is the alternative from the standpoint of the interviewer? These types of challenges are simple to state, self-contained, easy to timebox. For the interviewer for a say intermediate-level enterprise software backend position who needs to quickly sift through 50 applicants, what is the better option by way of code challenges?

Credentialing. Seriously. Have a Bar Association for developers. When anyone can do a few weeks of Googling and claim to be a software developer, you're going to get mostly crap candidates. Offload that process to a formal body, like lawyers, doctors, and engineers do. You can hire unlicensed developers, but you do so at your own risk. Then once you're talking to someone licensed in an interview, you can focus on jus…

Big companies already spend a lot of time and money interviewing candidates to figure out if they should be hired. Credentialing will turn that into either a standardized test (which is known to be inferior) or simply require a degree (which will exclude too many good candidates).

Re: Why HackerRank and other coding tests are ageist

#35

Post by wolfgke »

Joboman555 wrote: post #27
pizzaman09 wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Credentialing. Seriously. Have a Bar Association for developers. When anyone can do a few weeks of Googling and claim to be a software developer, you're going to get mostly crap candidates. Offload that process to a formal body, like lawyers, doctors, and engineers do. You can hire unlicensed developers, but you do so at your own risk. Then once you're talking to someone licensed in an interview, you can focus on jus…

This is maligned and dangerous. It has been shown that credentialing hurts the marketplace and consumers. Having a credential authority would not cause there to be a skill bar, it would just require all of us to pay money to a worthless authority.

> it would just require all of us to pay money to a worthless authority.

Today these authorities are universities.

Re: Why HackerRank and other coding tests are ageist

#36

Post by thedonkeycometh »

HackerRank and all those online coding challenges cater to a specific type of skill. Which is wholly learned by doing lots of online coding challenges. As such, they're not really a good barometer of skill in anything but doing online coding challenges.

I don't think anything I've done on a coding challenge has ever manifest into something useful at work. So to have it as a task in an interview process strikes me as a bit lazy.

However, for general brain exercise, they're good.

Re: Why HackerRank and other coding tests are ageist

#37

Post by jbob2000 »

jordanpg wrote: post #9
carlmr wrote: post #4

> Exactly on point. Also one gripe I have with hackerrank (I did some of the challenges to brush up on some language knowledge), is that a lot of the questions are poorly designed and from obvious amateurs. I still think that neither whiteboarding nor hackerrank selects for good developers. In the end you get people that studied hard to solve a certain class of problem that you'll never need in the real world. It's w…

Agree, but what is the alternative from the standpoint of the interviewer? These types of challenges are simple to state, self-contained, easy to timebox. For the interviewer for a say intermediate-level enterprise software backend position who needs to quickly sift through 50 applicants, what is the better option by way of code challenges?

> For the interviewer for a say intermediate-level enterprise software backend position who needs to quickly sift through 50 applicants, what is the better option by way of code challenges?

Code challenges are a dead end. You can have someone who passes every code challenge imaginable, but is absolutely awful to work with. Software development is more about communication and problem solving than anything else, so focus on those things first. Technical challenges are easier to overcome than personal ones! Here's my strategy:

- Resume smell test to filter out 90% of the applicants (spelling errors, run on sentences, poor formatting, poor experience, etc. If the applicant doesn't care or know enough to fix these on their resume, chances are they will do the same to your code base)

- 20min In person or on-camera interview smell test to filter out another 5% (punctuality, check for communication and personality problems, smoke test of technical knowledge)

- 1 hour+ in person interview to pick your candidate (deep dives into past projects, talk through or whiteboard a common problem in your industry, meet'n'greet with other team members)

- 3 month probation period to fully vet the new candidate and build trust.

There's no way that, out of 50 applicants, all of them are going to be equal, don't treat them that way. You need to fast track ones that are very promising and get them to meet with the team asap.

Re: Why HackerRank and other coding tests are ageist

#38

Post by pc86 »

carlmr wrote: post #4

> Exactly on point. Also one gripe I have with hackerrank (I did some of the challenges to brush up on some language knowledge), is that a lot of the questions are poorly designed and from obvious amateurs. I still think that neither whiteboarding nor hackerrank selects for good developers. In the end you get people that studied hard to solve a certain class of problem that you'll never need in the real world. It's w…

Then the issue isn't with the tests necessarily, it's with employers using a test of Skillset A to screen candidates for a job that is 80% Skillset B and 20% Skillset C. That doesn't make the tests ageist (which I suspect was included mostly as click bait), it just makes the hiring managers at these companies bad at their jobs.

Raise your hand if hiring managers being bad at screening technical candidates for highly technical roles is surprising to you.

Re: Why HackerRank and other coding tests are ageist

#39

Post by lmm »

wolfgke wrote: post #35
Joboman555 wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is maligned and dangerous. It has been shown that credentialing hurts the marketplace and consumers. Having a credential authority would not cause there to be a skill bar, it would just require all of us to pay money to a worthless authority.

> it would just require all of us to pay money to a worthless authority. Today these authorities are universities.

HackerRank-style test are one of the few ways into a good career for lower-class people who have the skills but can't afford the credentials.

Re: Why HackerRank and other coding tests are ageist

#40

Post by barrkel »

pizzaman09 wrote: post #11
jordanpg wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agree, but what is the alternative from the standpoint of the interviewer? These types of challenges are simple to state, self-contained, easy to timebox. For the interviewer for a say intermediate-level enterprise software backend position who needs to quickly sift through 50 applicants, what is the better option by way of code challenges?

Credentialing. Seriously. Have a Bar Association for developers. When anyone can do a few weeks of Googling and claim to be a software developer, you're going to get mostly crap candidates. Offload that process to a formal body, like lawyers, doctors, and engineers do. You can hire unlicensed developers, but you do so at your own risk. Then once you're talking to someone licensed in an interview, you can focus on jus…

Part of the problem is that the discipline is very wide, and there's different mixes of skills needed:

    +-----------+
    |\ business | - excel macros
    | \     +   |
    |  \  users | - web dev
    |   \       |
    |    \      | - back end dev
    |     \     |
    |      \    | - framework dev
    |       \   |
    |        \  | - tooling
    |         \ |
    | coding   \| - OS / compiler / database dev
    +-----------+
There's no simple cutoff that can mark someone out simply as a developer. And the diagram above doesn't reflect the fact that within each slice of the coding wedge, there's a different mix of technologies, different rates of technology turnover, requiring a different mix of e.g. aptitude to pick up new technologies quickly, vs depth of experience in existing technologies, quite apart from what the specific technologies are.
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