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At liberal tech companies, those who disagree on politics say they’re isolated

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Re: At liberal tech companies, those who disagree on politics say they’re isolated

#391

I grew up in Texas but worked in Silicon Valley for a few years. One of the toughest adjustments was going from a small conservative town to a major liberal populace. It was astonishing the number of people who got angry _at me_ for having a different opinion then they did. At one workplace I saw two coworkers get into a fist fight because the liberal was "offended" that the conservative differed on a viewpoint. Go t…

I moved to San Francisco from a small, deeply red town. I'll just say this - I think even that small town would be more tolerant of liberals than I felt when I worked in San Francisco, and I'm not even really that conservative (just economically). The leadership at the company was very reasonable, but the politically active folks terrified me, and didn't just think that those that held conservative viewpoints were mi…

This gem from HN the other day:

> Because it's hard to unanimously and unequivocally identify those who are intolerant as such. Owing to the beguiling nature of language and rhetoric, the intolerant can thrive and propagate by arguing that they're not in fact intolerant, and appealing to "free speech". This seems to be the MO of this so-called "alt-right" stuff; legal or constitutional barriers are almost impossible to define or enforce.

That is creepy to me. You have the ingredients of a witch hunt.

"can't easily distinguish them" aka "anyone could be a witch", "can't use legal methods to attack or 'regulate' them" aka "something... must be done", that's what I'm reading.

There's no evidence that the altright as a group are plotting to murder other citizens. The reverse, threats to do violence to altrighters, I see that on a daily basis without looking for it online e.g. the "punch a nazi" meme. Going from that to "beat up a nazi" to injury/death is not a leap.

And who are they? It's a large collection of loosely connected right wing groups. A full list would take several A4 pages. Most of them hold beliefs little different to our grandparents or possibly great-grandparents in the case of the monarchists. Anybody to the right of the Republican party could be 'altright'. This isn't true but that seems to be how most people have built their classifier.

It's easy to prove that because if you ask (as Trump did to a reporter) people to define the group, they don't know how to do it. I think there is a definition but nobody in the media has mentioned it AFAIK, it's not something that is well understood and so "Nazis!". That nazi flag at the charlottesville rally? A singular item unless the photographers were holding out on us. There are lots of photographs and it's this one guy walking around with a nazi flag.

There seems to be a curious motte and bailey argument going on here. The altright is a relatively small set, but in the media and twitter they are either a fringe sect of right wing lunatics or they are an all pervasive threat to society. It can't be both. Not unless you have an infinitely extensible definition that you can be using for ulterior political purposes.

Re: At liberal tech companies, those who disagree on politics say they’re isolated

#392

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I moved to San Francisco from a small, deeply red town. I'll just say this - I think even that small town would be more tolerant of liberals than I felt when I worked in San Francisco, and I'm not even really that conservative (just economically). The leadership at the company was very reasonable, but the politically active folks terrified me, and didn't just think that those that held conservative viewpoints were mi…

This gem from HN the other day: > Because it's hard to unanimously and unequivocally identify those who are intolerant as such. Owing to the beguiling nature of language and rhetoric, the intolerant can thrive and propagate by arguing that they're not in fact intolerant, and appealing to "free speech". This seems to be the MO of this so-called "alt-right" stuff; legal or constitutional barriers are almost impossible…

> There's no evidence that the altright as a group are plotting to murder other citizens

https://www.wired.com/story/leaked-alt-right-chat-logs-are-k...

Perhaps not "murder" but certainly "attack and maim". Please don't try excuse this with the "but they're only JOKING" trope - their intent is blatant and clear.

> it's this one guy walking around with a nazi flag

This article has a photo with two different guys holding two different flags - that makes at least 3.

https://azjewishpost.com/2017/hate-in-charlottesville-the-da...

Re: At liberal tech companies, those who disagree on politics say they’re isolated

#393
post #306

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I didn't vote for Trump, but I know many, many good people that did. Arguably "good people" don't support nor vote for an individual who openly brags about assaulting women... ...unless you have a different definition of what is considered "good". /much like christians claim "everything god does is good" - you know, like genocide via a flood...

>Arguably "good people" don't support nor vote for an individual who openly brags about assaulting women... If you take that stance, then your options are: 1. 45% of the voting people in USA support sexually assaulting women. Are you OK with that understanding? Do you not find something unsettling about saying 45% people in USA are OK for sexually assaulting women? The same conservative family oriented people, the sa…

> If Trump's audio conservation had not leaked, he would have won by even larger margin.

Unless you can show some evidence for this, it's just an unprovable counterfactual and completely useless.

Re: At liberal tech companies, those who disagree on politics say they’re isolated

#394

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This gem from HN the other day: > Because it's hard to unanimously and unequivocally identify those who are intolerant as such. Owing to the beguiling nature of language and rhetoric, the intolerant can thrive and propagate by arguing that they're not in fact intolerant, and appealing to "free speech". This seems to be the MO of this so-called "alt-right" stuff; legal or constitutional barriers are almost impossible…

> There's no evidence that the altright as a group are plotting to murder other citizens https://www.wired.com/story/leaked-alt-right-chat-logs-are-k... Perhaps not "murder" but certainly "attack and maim". Please don't try excuse this with the "but they're only JOKING" trope - their intent is blatant and clear. > it's this one guy walking around with a nazi flag This article has a photo with two different guys holdi…

> Perhaps not "murder" but certainly "attack and maim". Please don't try excuse this with the "but they're only JOKING" trope - their intent is blatant and clear.

If you're looking for people talking shit about their ideological rivals on the Internet you're going to find it. We can find examples of nazis or tankies threatening people any day of the week. They're nearly always posturing. What's different about "Punch a Nazi" is that it's a widespread meme across Twitter, Facebook and Reddit.

Imagine the reverse for a second. A meme called "Cut a Commie" receiving widespread acceptance from large groups of people across social media, including authority figures and celebrity endorsement.

> This article has a photo with two different guys holding two different flags - that makes at least 3.

Barely getting to plural!

It's the same as with that NPI conference in which 3-5 people raised their arms in a Nazi salute. The rise of the 4th Reich this is not. It's possible even those people are doing it 'for a laugh'. They're edgelords.

Have you any idea how many protests feature the flag with the hammer & sickle? Quite a lot more. I am not worried about Communist infiltrators interfering with my bodily fluids. They're nearly all edgelords, not Bolshevism 2.0

This is a moral panic, we have the media fanning the flames.

I strongly suspect if a lot of people on this forum simply turned off their television or newsfeed they'd be in a healthier place.

Re: At liberal tech companies, those who disagree on politics say they’re isolated

#395

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There's no evidence that the altright as a group are plotting to murder other citizens https://www.wired.com/story/leaked-alt-right-chat-logs-are-k... Perhaps not "murder" but certainly "attack and maim". Please don't try excuse this with the "but they're only JOKING" trope - their intent is blatant and clear. > it's this one guy walking around with a nazi flag This article has a photo with two different guys holdi…

> Perhaps not "murder" but certainly "attack and maim". Please don't try excuse this with the "but they're only JOKING" trope - their intent is blatant and clear. If you're looking for people talking shit about their ideological rivals on the Internet you're going to find it. We can find examples of nazis or tankies threatening people any day of the week. They're nearly always posturing. What's different about "Punch…

> They're nearly always posturing. [...] They're edgelords.

Ah, there's the "they're only joking" trope we know and love.

> Imagine the reverse for a second. [...] "Cut a Commie"

I know where this is going. I say "Oh, but communists aren't as bad as Nazis, that would never happen" and you bring up that wikipedia page showing that more people died under communism than nazism and we all mark you down as a "whataboutism" sympathiser and the world is a little bit shittier.

> Barely getting to plural!

But definitely more than "a singular item".

> Have you any idea how many protests feature the flag with the hammer & sickle?

Oh, there's the whataboutism.

Re: At liberal tech companies, those who disagree on politics say they’re isolated

#396

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Perhaps not "murder" but certainly "attack and maim". Please don't try excuse this with the "but they're only JOKING" trope - their intent is blatant and clear. If you're looking for people talking shit about their ideological rivals on the Internet you're going to find it. We can find examples of nazis or tankies threatening people any day of the week. They're nearly always posturing. What's different about "Punch…

> They're nearly always posturing. [...] They're edgelords. Ah, there's the "they're only joking" trope we know and love. > Imagine the reverse for a second. [...] "Cut a Commie" I know where this is going. I say "Oh, but communists aren't as bad as Nazis, that would never happen" and you bring up that wikipedia page showing that more people died under communism than nazism and we all mark you down as a "whataboutism…

> Ah, there's the "they're only joking" trope we know and love.

It's not like that. I don't want to trivialize the death of the girl in Charlotte either, it's a domestic terror incident.

There's a constant background hum of political violent extremism throughout Europe and America. The key indicator for which species is ascendant is whether the popular media narrative is leaning one way or the other. The validation of these group's concerns seem to give them the entitlement they need to turn rhetoric into activity.

There's already been an attempt on one Congressman's life so imagine what will happen if something similar succeeds.

> I know where this is going. I say "Oh, but communists aren't as bad as Nazis, that would never happen" and you bring up that wikipedia page showing that more people died under communism than nazism and we all mark you down as a "whataboutism" sympathiser and the world is a little bit shittier.

I see you've been here before. We can always hold a truce and declare both groups unworthy.

>> Have you any idea how many protests feature the flag with the hammer & sickle?

> Oh, there's the whataboutism.

It does bug me. One gets consternation. The other "meh".

Re: At liberal tech companies, those who disagree on politics say they’re isolated

#397
post #325

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would I listen to a Ted talk buy a guy who is calling me disrespectful, disloyal, and impure?

You shouldn't. Since that's nothing close to what he says, you might just learn something by listening. Haidt is pretty fair and non-judgmental. If anything one could use his talk to say conservatives are using a more balanced consideration when making moral decisions. Using five factors instead of just two.

Haidt's ideas are widely discredited among academics in sociology, psychology, and philosophy. He's peddling pseudo-science that just so happens to make conservatives seem more 'balanced' than liberals.

Re: At liberal tech companies, those who disagree on politics say they’re isolated

#398

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You describe the Paradox of Tolerance: for a tolerant society to exist, it must be intolerant towards intolerance, or the intolerant slowly dominate. This is the paradox enabling many to blindly say Antifa is a racist or fascist organization. No, they are the intolerant side of tolerance laying down the law. Without them, any tolerant society devolves slowly to fascism.

It's not a paradox, it's just doublethink. The key is to realise that the "Antifa" agenda has nothing to do with tolerance, regardless of what they claim.

That's not actually an argument? Also the Paradox of Tolerance is a paradox and is a component of decision theory, and is a pretty well understood mathematical construct. So you can't argue that the Paradox of Tolerance isn't a thing you can only argue that the Nazis and KKK aren't intolerant. Most people would disagree with that...

Re: At liberal tech companies, those who disagree on politics say they’re isolated

#399

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'd lean towards worse. I don't recall anyone attempting to publicly shame me for not being "conservative enough". I'd wager that most liberals have encountered some version of that. Odd. Just an observation: conservatives in the US have a commonly used name for that - RINO - Republican in Name Only - and there is no equivalent name among liberals.

They're called limousine liberals/champagne socialists.

> limousine liberals

Oh, thanks, THAT is one that I had heard and subsequently forgotten.

Re: At liberal tech companies, those who disagree on politics say they’re isolated

#400

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nobody looked into Eich's voting record. Eich donated to a campaign against gay marriage, and donations above a certain threshold are public record. Gay people and people who support civil rights who are strong enough coders to work for Mozilla will easily find employment at any of a number of other Bay Area employers run by people who support them. Mozilla was losing developers[1], and Eich took the reasonable actio…

So someone went looking into the public voting record, presumably to find things they could exploit to get rid of him. How is this different to what the OP said?

Once again, it's not his voting record. He donated to a campaign that vilified gays.[1] It was publicized years before he was offered the CEO role and had already made gay Mozilla employees uncomfortable[2], but it's obviously different working with somebody who vilifies you vs. working for somebody who does.

The gay employees of Mozilla were understandably upset when he became CEO, and since the Bay Area in general is pretty progressive, many other employees were also upset. They were looking for new employers.

I gave an anti-miscegenation analogy earlier. How is this different from a CEO making a public donation to The Daily Stormer (perhaps pointing to the stories of Judas and Cain as justification) and the Jewish and non-white employees and their allies not wanting to work for him? You cannot take public action to vilify your employees and deny them civil rights and expect them to keep working for you.

[1] https://youtu.be/pSb3jiuIhUM

[2] http://observer.com/2012/04/tech-celeb-makes-prop-8-donation...

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