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Verizon Up offers rewards in exchange for customers’ personal information

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Re: Verizon Up offers rewards in exchange for customers’ personal information

#51

It seems to me that this is he future we are heading, where privacy is only accessible for higher classes, it's a shame we are going in this direction just in the name of profit.

If we stop punishing companies when they have a bad quarter, this probably would not be happening.

Exactly. People completely disconnect their own incentives as a shareholder ("hope price goes up") with those as a user(privacy/ethics in this case).

When you only want the price of FB/GOOG to rise as a shareholder and are happy when it does (regardless of what it took to achieve it), don't be surprised when the board that represents the shareholders does whatever it takes to make it happen.

As a shareholder, you can be completely ignorant (or knowing but indifferent) of what it takes to deliver returns to your investment yet support those measures by buying shares. As a board member, the only incentive then is to raise share price because you know shareholders don't know/care about what it takes.

When the system delivers rewards to both shareholders and people running the company for extracting more profit, and requires little scrutiny of the means in which that is done, the logical optimization target function is just that - profit. The system converges to optimizing the target function.

If you are not a shareholder but merely a user, this does not apply to you. But then, your only input into the system it whether you choose to remain a user. As long as enough people remain such that the business can continue to function an generate profits, there is again no incentive for a business to change its behavior.

Re: Verizon Up offers rewards in exchange for customers’ personal information

#52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's similar to other rewards programs but "Customers must give the carrier access to their web-browsing history, app usage and location data" is a lot more information about me than "what I've bought at in the past year".

>"what I've bought at in the past year". They get so much more than that. If you use a credit card at the store, the record now knows about this card, and any other credit card you have ever used while using that rewards program. This can all then be connected to other databases that track personal credit card spending in similar ways. A surprisingly detailed profile is quite likely to be out there on all of us, even…

I believe it is illegal (at least in some states) to use the card information for anything other than processing the payment. That is, I believe they cannot use it to track you and your purchase. This is one of the main reasons there are loyalty cards — to get you to explicitly consent to tracking.

edit: If they are allowed to track based on credit card, this would be a good reason to use Apple Pay, or some other payment method that generates a unique "card number" for every purchase.

Re: Verizon Up offers rewards in exchange for customers’ personal information

#53
post #42

As far as disgusting invasions of privacy go, at least in this case, the customer has a choice of whether or not to opt in. Usually, megacorps simply siphon the data and use it however they wish, regardless of what the customer wants. Still, this pushes society further along the spectrum away from valuing one's own privacy.

This is the way to go, make it a voluntary exchange. But in return there should be controls on price hikes so that they don't push everyone to "voluntarily" exchange their privacy to avoid the $10,000 monthly bill.

Re: Verizon Up offers rewards in exchange for customers’ personal information

#54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>"what I've bought at in the past year". They get so much more than that. If you use a credit card at the store, the record now knows about this card, and any other credit card you have ever used while using that rewards program. This can all then be connected to other databases that track personal credit card spending in similar ways. A surprisingly detailed profile is quite likely to be out there on all of us, even…

I believe it is illegal (at least in some states) to use the card information for anything other than processing the payment. That is, I believe they cannot use it to track you and your purchase. This is one of the main reasons there are loyalty cards — to get you to explicitly consent to tracking. edit: If they are allowed to track based on credit card, this would be a good reason to use Apple Pay, or some other pay…

I see. So, Google's use of CC data to track whether their ads work [0] is illegal, huh? I find it hard to believe they would announce doing it if so.

Edit: so you just want to hand over your info to Apple instead of some other big corporation?

[0]: http://www.slate.com/blogs/future_tense/2017/08/01/google_tr...

Re: Verizon Up offers rewards in exchange for customers’ personal information

#55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You'd be surprised how much privacy poorer people give up in their jobs already. Most are watched all the time, with all manor of SV tech. Drug test, time clocks, GPS devices, and I'm sure SV is working hard to chip them, and do all sorts of other things to take away every ounce of privacy they have.

Time clocks and drug tests aren't exactly SV inventions. While there are many possible distopian outcomes to a lot of tech, suppression of the working class is hardly a new problem or the fault of SV.

The key words in the GP post were not "SV."

Re: Verizon Up offers rewards in exchange for customers’ personal information

#56

Is this not what all rewards programs are? How is this different from the local supermarket rewards card that I have, which "rewards" me with coupons targeted towards my purchasing habits? I'm not sure how to better inform people on these issues.

It's similar to other rewards programs but "Customers must give the carrier access to their web-browsing history, app usage and location data" is a lot more information about me than "what I've bought at in the past year".

Take a look at the AT&T terms and conditions for the Plenti rewards program. [1]

[1] https://www.att.com/legal/terms.Plenti.html

Re: Verizon Up offers rewards in exchange for customers’ personal information

#57

It seems to me that this is he future we are heading, where privacy is only accessible for higher classes, it's a shame we are going in this direction just in the name of profit.

And how do even "higher classes" achieve privacy while taking advantage of what modern technology has to offer? I can't even imagine the level of op sec one would need to be truly anonymous on the internet.

Re: Verizon Up offers rewards in exchange for customers’ personal information

#58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If we stop punishing companies when they have a bad quarter, this probably would not be happening.

The level of mental gymnastics required to argue that a lack of regulation would improve customer privacy is ... olympian.

Where are you getting that the GP post is advocating a lack of regulation? I read it as the market should stop punishing transient fluctuations in earnings and share prices and expecting continuous growth, while, in turn, we could have companies that actually respect privacy. I'm not sure it's a great argument, but it's a nice sentiment, at least.

Re: Verizon Up offers rewards in exchange for customers’ personal information

#59

Is this not what all rewards programs are? How is this different from the local supermarket rewards card that I have, which "rewards" me with coupons targeted towards my purchasing habits? I'm not sure how to better inform people on these issues.

It's similar to other rewards programs but "Customers must give the carrier access to their web-browsing history, app usage and location data" is a lot more information about me than "what I've bought at in the past year".

Reward card providers put cookie-matching code on their sites. If you log into to "check your points" or whatever, they send your reward ID to DMPs which you may already have cookies for, and those cookies in turn tie back to your web browsing history.

Credit card companies also do this, though I believe in the EU and even US there are stronger regulations around what exactly they can send (vs. rewards cards).

Re: Verizon Up offers rewards in exchange for customers’ personal information

#60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Time clocks and drug tests aren't exactly SV inventions. While there are many possible distopian outcomes to a lot of tech, suppression of the working class is hardly a new problem or the fault of SV.

The key words in the GP post were not "SV."

Did we read the same comment?

> I'm sure SV is working hard to chip them, and do all sorts of other things to take away every ounce of privacy they have.

It's pretty clear how someone would read that as an accusation of worker suppression being SV's fault. Sure, privacy is the general topic, but the whole comment was about invading privacy with "SV tech".

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