At liberal tech companies, those who disagree on politics say they’re isolated • Hacker News Board

Re: At liberal tech companies, those who disagree on politics say they’re isolated

#151

Post by vgh » Tue, Sep 05, 2017, 2:00 PM UTC

Frondo wrote: post #129

vgh wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this is still a false dichotomy. Some of us just don't want the government subsidizing marriage at all. Why should any dual-income pair get tax benefits? I say this as a married person. The thought I'm guessing at the time was to encourage new families to build up society, but not even all straight, married couples are doing that. Why not just take the government out of the equation and let anyone declare any…

Personally, I agree! I'd get the government out of marriage entirely, except to recognize whatever union you wanted. Because again there are real-world consequences, like being considered a family member if your loved one's in a hospital, or getting access to death benefits if your loved one dies in the line of duty, or whatever. But that's not what one of the two mainstream parties is saying: they're saying, "tradit…

Yeah, the hospital visitation rights and death benefits are good points. I'm not sure why those are so restrictive at all? Why even require a documented relationship? Just let people choose who can visit them, or get their death benefits. Is that a crazy stance?

Re: At liberal tech companies, those who disagree on politics say they’re isolated

#152

Post by te_chris » Tue, Sep 05, 2017, 2:00 PM UTC

peoplewindow wrote: post #113

MBCook wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

GP is not insinuating that person is a racist, they're pointing out that some 'political' views are really hard to be civil about. For exactly that reason they stir up very strong feelings. I've seen strong feeling (but relatively civil discussion) about topics like handling North Korea or immigration. Things like taxes tend to be far more civil as GP pointed out. There was absolutely no need to call GP a bigot.

They really don't tend to be more civil. The only reason it may seem like that in America is that the USA has never really attempted to cut its deficit. Go look at political conversation in the UK and you'll find large numbers of left wingers / liberals foaming at the mouth about how the government trying to balance its budget is the same thing as hating people, killing them, that austerity is unthinkable evil, that…

"Go look at political conversation in the UK and you'll find large numbers of left wingers / liberals foaming at the mouth about how the government trying to balance its budget is the same thing as hating people, killing them"

I see you've listened closely to them and engaged with their arguments.

Re: At liberal tech companies, those who disagree on politics say they’re isolated

#153

Post by plandis » Tue, Sep 05, 2017, 2:00 PM UTC

austenallred wrote: post #108

chrisabrams wrote: post #2

I grew up in Texas but worked in Silicon Valley for a few years. One of the toughest adjustments was going from a small conservative town to a major liberal populace. It was astonishing the number of people who got angry _at me_ for having a different opinion then they did. At one workplace I saw two coworkers get into a fist fight because the liberal was "offended" that the conservative differed on a viewpoint. Go t…

I moved to San Francisco from a small, deeply red town. I'll just say this - I think even that small town would be more tolerant of liberals than I felt when I worked in San Francisco, and I'm not even really that conservative (just economically). The leadership at the company was very reasonable, but the politically active folks terrified me, and didn't just think that those that held conservative viewpoints were mi…

In my opinion, some of the policies of the Republican Party seem downright evil to me. Restrict the civil rights of gays and Muslims (Trump himself stated that he was going to start a Muslim ban, he asked people to make it legal but the intent was very clear and stated by Trump several times: Muslim ban). They also want to restrict information on the internet which seems pretty evil to me (modern day book banning). They want to deport kids who have lived in the US their whole lives through no fault of their own.

Re: At liberal tech companies, those who disagree on politics say they’re isolated

#154

Post by kbart » Tue, Sep 05, 2017, 2:00 PM UTC

What I find strange and what keeps getting repeated in this thread is that if you don't agree on certain points of currently popular liberal trends, you are automatically being called "conservative" or even worse (bigot, racist, sexist etc. - you name it). I call myself liberal (I agree that all people are equal and nobody should tell how anybody lives, as long as it doesn't harm others), but I don't agree with some (maybe even most) of methods of current liberal-left trends. For example, just starting a discussion that artificial minorities/sex quotas in workplace does next to nothing solving a root cause of the problems is enough to start being called racist/sexist in some circles.

Re: At liberal tech companies, those who disagree on politics say they’re isolated

#155

Post by sp332 » Tue, Sep 05, 2017, 2:01 PM UTC

oh_sigh wrote: post #58

StavrosK wrote: post #7

I don't think it's even just conservatives, anyone who has an even slightly different opinion than the golden calves US libertarian society has set up is shunned. It's closer to religion at this point. I consider myself liberal, but (and?) I disagree on various topics, mostly on affirmative action. However, if you think that introducing more bias is a bad way to solve existing bias, you're a racist. It's not "I disag…

> However, if you think that introducing more bias is a bad way to solve existing bias, you're a racist. You can always refer to the UK(a country that ended slavery before the USA and didn't need a civil war to do it) decided that affirmative action is illegal exactly because it is a racist policy.

It's already illegal in 1/3 of the USA right? California, Florida, Texas, Michigan, and Washington already banned it.

Re: At liberal tech companies, those who disagree on politics say they’re isolated

#156

Post by classybull » Tue, Sep 05, 2017, 2:01 PM UTC

LyndsySimon wrote: post #74

classybull wrote: post #8

Aren't these the same sort that will moan ceaselessly about the ludicrousness of "safe spaces" and "snowflakes"? I don't particularly care. You're free to speak your mind. You're not free to force people around you agree. Either get over it, or move on. I hear welding is an in-demand industry and I bet they'll find more receptivity to their viewpoints there.

I find a lot of irony here. First of all, you are associating conservative beliefs with the trades. That's exactly the sort of thing that is being brought up here - you're effectively saying that the left claims white collar jobs, particularly those in tech, and that anyone who doesn't fit that mold shouldn't even bother. Secondly, you're implying that welding is a lower-status field. Nothing could be further from th…

I don't think I implied that at all. If you felt that way, you might be revealing your own cognitive biases. I don't think any form of labor is morally superior to anything else, mainly because I disagree with the whole concept of the labor system in general, but I disgress.

My point was that you can't denigrate people asking to share their opinion peacefully and without verbal assault, ie a "safe space", while simultaneously complaining that your viewpoints aren't allowed to be shared peacefully and without verbal assault.

Which, btw, I believe is a load of bull. I've been party to multitudes of political conversations in the workplace and a negligibly tiny percentage of them have I seen actually get out of control. You may feel that your viewpoints aren't aligned with the culture, but that's my entire point. You have no reasonable expectation to force the culture to do anything, leading back to my point of I wouldn't go to to work at, say, an oil rig with the expectation of my political culture aligning with theirs.

And before you begin, I'm not saying anything against people who work on rigs. I am saying that there is evidence that it overall is a right leaning culture.

Re: At liberal tech companies, those who disagree on politics say they’re isolated

#157

Post by zimpenfish » Tue, Sep 05, 2017, 2:01 PM UTC

ams6110 wrote: post #117

zimpenfish wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you mention you are a conservative or hold conservative views, [many of which involve punitive action against the least well off / most marginalised in society] > you are aligned with the worst of the worst and anything you say is inherently wrong. Amazing, really, that people think less of you when you specifically say you think less of others (which is the core conservative stance.)

I'm conservative, I do not think less of anyone else as a human being (I may well think less of their opinions, actions, or behaviors, but that's not at all the same thing). Your viewpoint that "thinking less of others" is a "core" conservative value very much implies that you don't really know any conservatives, and are just parroting the party line from within your bubble.

> just parroting the party line

I am indeed just parroting the GOP party line. Their policies comprehensively demonstrate that they think less of others - LGBTQ people, women, poor people, POC, immigrants are all "lesser" in the eyes of the GOP.

Re: At liberal tech companies, those who disagree on politics say they’re isolated

#158

Post by peoplewindow » Tue, Sep 05, 2017, 2:01 PM UTC

thedz wrote: post #83

Banthum wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's imagine we work together. I say your politics, whatever they are, make me feel hurt, scared, and angry. Obviously you can't argue with this; my feelings are my feelings and are thus inarguable. Therefore, by your basic rule, you are no longer allowed to even state any of your political beliefs, because such would make me feel hurt, scared, and angry. And it doesn't matter what your beliefs are or how you arrive…

> Now I've got total control over the speech of anyone around me. I can shut down anyone, making any statement on any topic. I need only declare that I feel hurt, scared, or angered by that statement - and such inarguable declarations have absolute unappealable power to silence. If someone, in your place of business, says "what you just said was hurtful and offensive", then yes, I think maybe you shouldn't say it. Or…

You can stop and consider it, and then say "actually, you shouldn't be offended by that. It is immature to be offended by that. Please grow up"

That will offend them even more of course, which is why companies that don't have tough management will all be wrecked by this social strategy in the coming years. Google is already clearly far gone. At some point employees that constantly claim to be offended need to be told they'll be fired if they don't toughen up.

Re: At liberal tech companies, those who disagree on politics say they’re isolated

#159

Post by AndrewKemendo » Tue, Sep 05, 2017, 2:01 PM UTC

A recent Joe Rogan Podcast had a really interesting discussion about this [1].

Basically one of the key points, especially in light of people being called Nazis (accurately or spuriously), is that one of the major social aspects of pre-war Germany was that there was radical polarization between fascist and anti-fascist groups similar to what we see now. However because the psychological makeup of someone who would support fascism is more drawn toward structuralism, law and order etc... they are much more organized and lethal as a group.

You see echoes here with the Alt-Right and Antifa. Alt-Right is structured, highly armed, biologically motivated (aka racist) and generally support law enforcement. Antifa is a loose consolidation of many groups (LGBT, Socialists, Radfem etc...) that is under armed and would likely not be as cohesive in the long run.

So by banning these hate groups from being searchable and driving them away, it just makes both sides echo each other more and gives strength to each extreme of the movements. Even worse, it gives people like the ones in this article no real option to be moderate - they basically feel like they need to join a radical ideology because they feel the only alternative is anathema. This is by the way what happens all over the world with terrorist recruiting etc... so the pattern is pretty well understood. If you create extremes, organizations will form around them and then the majority of people get drug along for the ride and do morally dubious things along the way.

[1] https://youtu.be/6G59zsjM2UI?t=10m55s

Re: At liberal tech companies, those who disagree on politics say they’re isolated

#160

Post by staticelf » Tue, Sep 05, 2017, 2:01 PM UTC

plandis wrote: post #128

peoplewindow wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not seeing hatred towards people for arguing over correct levels of import taxes Sure you are. You see someone vote for Trump and immediately assume it must be because they're an evil, ethically flawed person who inexplicably hates love, sunshine and puppies, whereas perhaps they mostly care about taxes. You even did it in this post. Your thinking is knee jerk and shallow, and it's people like you that are causin…

How is it knee-jerk and shallow? If you voted for Trump you either directly support Trump's social policies or you don't think they were abhorrent enough to not vote for him.

Or maybe that the democratic economical policies were abhorrent enough to vote for Trump, despite his social policies?