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Fish are eating lots of plastic

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Re: Fish are eating lots of plastic

#92
My country just enforced a plastics ban one week ago. It is generally much cleaner but there's a lot of friction in retail establishments as most patrons were all too used to having their shopping packed in a plastic bag. Now we have to buy an eco-friendly bag every time we forget to carry one. A lot of customers are generally disgruntled but change is upon us and it must be embraced.

Re: Fish are eating lots of plastic

#93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why manufacturers? If waste disposal had to be paid for, people would start adjusting the retail price by adding the disposal price. Not sure where you live but in my town I pay 7€ per bin container (approx 50l) for non-recyclable waste but the recyclable stuff is free (which is probably still too cheap)

How do they deal with public trash bins on sidewalks, etc.? Are there none? If there are any, what's to prevent people dumping their garbage there and avoiding the fee? And what about homeless or otherwise poor people who don't have the means to pay?

To be fair, this can be an issue. Where I live, you put your garbage in a bag (it's about €4 a bag) on the street on Monday mornings. This means if I have a bunch of faeces-soaked stuff to get rid of on Tuesday I have to let it sit around my apartment for 6 days (I have a three week old child). I am not above tossing it in one of the neighborhood bins.

As far as the homeless, I'd much rather they use the bins than leave stuff lying around the street, even if I pay more in taxes. I definitely would prefer they would put the aluminium foil and lighters in the bin to the current approach of letting it pile up in any handy alcove.

Re: Fish are eating lots of plastic

#94
post #86

The irony of the first ad I'm shown being a coffee machine with unrecyclable pods to fill it makes me both amused and sad. Sort of sums up the whole problem really.

If it's Nespresso (or a compatible system) that you were shown an ad for, the "unrecyclable" line that seems to often get repeated is actually false. The pods _are_ recyclable, but whether they actually _get_ recycled is a legitimate concern. In Switzerland and Germany, currently about 50% of used pods are recycled, and this is growing rapidly. Additionally, Nestle claims that the proportion of recycled aluminium (fr…

Approaching 80% of recycled aluminum is great, but remember that aluminum recycling rates in general are very good (~70%)

Re: Fish are eating lots of plastic

#95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why manufacturers? If waste disposal had to be paid for, people would start adjusting the retail price by adding the disposal price. Not sure where you live but in my town I pay 7€ per bin container (approx 50l) for non-recyclable waste but the recyclable stuff is free (which is probably still too cheap)

How do they deal with public trash bins on sidewalks, etc.? Are there none? If there are any, what's to prevent people dumping their garbage there and avoiding the fee? And what about homeless or otherwise poor people who don't have the means to pay?

There are trash bins but now the person doing it to save 7 € is now committing an administrative offence so now you have a few legal instances of a problem instead of many instances of an ecological problem.

This is not to say that consumers paying for their trash solves all problems.

It does, however, provide an incentive to avoid "bad" trash in the first place. "Taxing" manufacturers doesn't (because those taxes apply equally to every manufacturer)

EDIT: To be clear, taxing the manufacturer works via contributions of ecological people in facor of the unecological ones. It's the opposite of what you'd want.

Re: Fish are eating lots of plastic

#96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You know that fish is a type of meat, right?

Lots of cultures don't class fish in with most meats. In traditional Catholicism the rule against meat on Fridays didn't apply to fish and likewise with Japanese Buddhist rules against meat eating. It's sort of like how most people consider tomatoes to be vegetables even though they aren't, scientifically. Yeah, in 21st century English fish is a meat but it's non-centrally meat so the meaning is clear when you apply…

When I was visiting Brazil I met a bunch of people that called themselves vegetarians who would eat chicken and bacon. Turns out "vegetarian" means not eating beef. It led to some pretty funny misunderstandings.

Re: Fish are eating lots of plastic

#97

I really wish plastics were recycled/reused a lot more, because they are such ideal materials --- being rather unreactive, flexible, resilient, and (in the case of thermoplastics, which make up the bulk of this waste) easily reprocessed. Although the throwaway culture and low cost means that a lot of it doesn't, I wonder if in the future, if the prices go up in following petroleum trends, "mining" for plastics would…

I'm sort of banking on that. I expect our landfills will be mined by junkers. There is a lot of rare earth elements, metals, and plastics that won't biodegrade very quickly. Little snake bots tunneling through could pick them all up. It's all a matter of need, we'll deplete the finite resources soon.

> we'll deplete the finite resources soon.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Robert_Malthus#Later_li...

I mean, I get that you're not talking about food, but neither was Malthus per se. I just feel I might point out that the guy died in 1834, at the ripe old age of 68. We have still not run out of even one of the resources he predicted were going to run out "soon".

Likewise you could probably make similar predictions about life and nature itself 3.6 billion years ago ... and that too has not yet happened, and most agree (why the prediction is different for humans vs nature I don't understand ... nature replicates exponentially and far faster than humans and uses anything and everything easily available to it just like we accuse ourselves of. But somehow nature can do no wrong. Or perhaps the reasoning is that it will adapt ... and apparently we will not ?) that it's unlikely to happen in the next 9 or so billion years. Ironically, it is now suspected that life on this planet will die from crushing overabundance of energy rather than from a shortage of some critical resource.

In fact it seems that Say's law is correct, and this is not a serious point of contention among modern-day economists. It essentially says that one of two things is true: the price mechanism means that either we will simply never run out of a particular resource, or we will replace it, probably with something better and cheaper, and never run out of that. We have in fact run out of plenty of individual resources in the time since Malthus, so there have been plenty of test cases for Say's law.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Say%27s_law

Life has carried out Say's law almost to perfection. With only a few rare exceptions the concentration of atoms in cells, and therefore in most plants and animals is an almost perfect reflection of how they occur in the dead matter surrounding them. Why couldn't we do the same, given enough time, with our technology ? I mean, we don't know how at the moment, but we're getting closer all the time. I would even say that plastic is one such innovation: it is far closer in concentration to the natural environment than the mostly steel and various metals it replaced, far more abundant than the wood it replaced, and generally got us (a lot) closer to having our technology made up of the atoms surrounding us.

Furthermore, I would like to point out that there is no shortage of asteroids, some with literally mountains of rare earths, that we could either mine in orbit or, if small enough or cut up, crash into the Earth.

Finally, as animal bodies illustrate, it is perfectly possible to construct very advanced and well-working pieces of technology with zero access to rare earths. We just don't know how ... yet. We even know perfectly well how to get closer to that goal, it just isn't cheaper at this point in time.

Re: Fish are eating lots of plastic

#98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

well, I should have said "animal flesh". In my mother tongue (Spanish) fish (pescado) is different than meat (carne).

Sounds like a bug in Spanish (chill, I'm Spanish). However, fish is also animal flesh so that wouldn't have made the statement any better. Fish are animals. Fish muscles are meat in the same way any other meat is meat. Downvoted for facts, gotta love it.

From the HN guidelines:

Please don't comment about the voting on comments. It never does any good, and it makes boring reading.

Re: Fish are eating lots of plastic

#99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do they deal with public trash bins on sidewalks, etc.? Are there none? If there are any, what's to prevent people dumping their garbage there and avoiding the fee? And what about homeless or otherwise poor people who don't have the means to pay?

There are trash bins but now the person doing it to save 7 € is now committing an administrative offence so now you have a few legal instances of a problem instead of many instances of an ecological problem. This is not to say that consumers paying for their trash solves all problems. It does, however, provide an incentive to avoid "bad" trash in the first place. "Taxing" manufacturers doesn't (because those taxes ap…

I think most places in the US do pay for trash disposal. I pay ~$17 per month for trash and recycling (recycling sadly isn't free, but I opt to pay extra for it). That is probably less than you are paying, but it is a profitable business for the company that does it.

Re: Fish are eating lots of plastic

#100

I really wish plastics were recycled/reused a lot more, because they are such ideal materials --- being rather unreactive, flexible, resilient, and (in the case of thermoplastics, which make up the bulk of this waste) easily reprocessed. Although the throwaway culture and low cost means that a lot of it doesn't, I wonder if in the future, if the prices go up in following petroleum trends, "mining" for plastics would…

I really wish there was a return to cafeteria-style plates and cutlery for food courts. I know that sounds weird but I feel immensely guilty throwing away plastic and styrofoam every day just to have a bit of lunch, but it's not like you can show up to a restaurant and say "here, use my tupperware for my to go order."

There's no middle ground in America between bringing lunch from home every day so it's in reusable containers and throw away packaging for anything that's not immediately consumed on premises. I would gladly pay another dollar or two for someone to give me tiffin-style lunch packed in a reusable container.

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