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Chinese Man Sentenced to Prison for Selling VPN Software

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Re: Chinese Man Sentenced to Prison for Selling VPN Software

#21

Post by bobjordan »

StanislavPetrov wrote: post #11
bobjordan wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The 18%, Chinese people, do not want outsider's input on their governmental structure. On the whole (edit: "on the whole" means "most people"), they are perfectly happy with the way things are going. Standards of living increase year-over-year every single year. Until that stops, they don't want a thing to change. Now if that stops for a decade or so, maybe it will change. But that's unlikely to happen. So, it's futi…

Talking about any massive group of people as if they all share the same belief is never useful. Its one thing to suggest that some, or a majority, of Chinese support the current system, and quite another to suggest that they all do. I'm pretty sure "tank man" and countless other Chinese would disagree with your characterization of "what they want".

I get your point on "all" vs. "most" vs. "some". Let me clarify, I'm drinking my morning coffee from China and just typing a stream of thoughts here. I read the first sentence in your response here, and I'll point out your own logical fallacy. "Talking about any massive group of people as if they all share the same belief is never useful."

Well, from my decade as an entrepreneur, I can assure you, it is sometimes quite useful to generalize. One skill required to survive is to form opinions based on limited access to information under conditions of uncertainty. So I'd caution against your own use of the word "never". Anyway, my original comment did state "on the whole". This means "most".

Re: Chinese Man Sentenced to Prison for Selling VPN Software

#22

Post by seanmcdirmid »

gozur88 wrote: post #20
seanmcdirmid wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

China doesn't really have rule of law. If they want to make an example of you, they will find a way to do it. Judge's are completely deferrent to officials in that way, and there is no judicial review. It is just classic rule by law (laws are weaponized to serve whatever purpose vs. being fairly applied).

"Rule of law" is really a spectrum. China may be toward the arbitrary end, but maybe not as much as we'd like to believe. Prosecutors in the US have enormous power, which is why 98% of US federal cases are pled out.

Totally, though that most cases are pled out says nothing about the cases that never are. An overzealous prosecutor can be beat down by a judge in the USA at least. In china, there is no real difference between prosecutor and judge, someone makes a decision somewhere and that's it. The only recourse is bad publicity. Rule of law is a spectrum, but we are talking about drastically different ends of it. What's more, rule of law is not even a goal for the Chinese government, who think an independent power-checking judiciary is unnecessary given that the CCP only consists of wise and uncorrupt officials.

Re: Chinese Man Sentenced to Prison for Selling VPN Software

#23

Post by seanmcdirmid »

bobjordan wrote: post #19
laowaiba wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Standards of living increase year-over-year every single year I lived in China for a few years, and finally left early this year. Standard of living has been declining ever since I arrived, for me and for my local friends, many of them that were from other provinces that came to Shanghai. The declining factors included: 1.) Increasingly worse air pollution. It was not smart to exercise outdoors in the summer or win…

I'm not saying it doesn't suck for westerners. What I am saying is that from my view, which is of course constrained by all kinds of limits, my best guess hypotheses that I am putting 100% of my money on in the form of all my investments, is that it doesn't yet suck for the vast majority of Chinese in their own minds. Like a drum roll, we've been forced to give 10-20% wage increases every single year to keep my talen…

It sucks for Chinese also. To know their life expectancies are being sacrificed for cheaper exports...really sucks. That under the dome video was censored very quickly for a reason.

Re: Chinese Man Sentenced to Prison for Selling VPN Software

#24

Post by girzel »

bobjordan wrote: post #17
girzel wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a strange claim, given that you are not allowed to ask the Chinese people, en masse, if they like their government or not, and they are not allowed to tell you. Until they are allowed to speak on the subject, we will not know. But the near-daily peasant uprisings around the country would tend to indicate dissatisfaction.

You are correct in that I cannot canvass the 1.4 Billion population "en massee". I'm constrained to navigate the world and form opinions based on incomplete information. But, given I run a company here in China and have been here for 8 years, I'm a bit skeptical when I hear all the hyperbolic pitch fork raising from westerners who likely haven't spent much time here and had long term exposure to the culture and the p…

I think where we're likely to agree is that, if popular dissatisfaction does lead to fundamental change, it's not likely to be the dissatisfaction of middle class folks demanding Western-style freedoms. It's much more likely to come from the bottom layers of society, who are fed up with gross inequality and horrible injustice.

That said, it is useful to constantly remind yourself that your point of view on China is only ever a tiny corner of the picture. I lived there for 15 years (not to make this a pissing contest) and speak Chinese fluently, and my peer group there was mad as hell about the government. But I know that hanging out with writers and journalists is going to give me a pretty skewed point of view on the country as a whole.

Lastly, about "thousands of years of single party rule", I think Chinese history over the past 150 years makes it abundantly plain that Chinese people have absolutely had it with single party rule. From the Xinhai Revolution, to May Fourth, to the early 1950 political participation, to 1989, to the Charter '08, the history of China in the modern period is the history of a people who are doing their goddamn best to throw off authoritarianism, and who keep getting crushed by the authorities. And then, twenty or thirty years later, they get up and do it again. It's fucking heartbreaking, to be honest. Each time it's led by an educated elite, not necessarily "the masses", but that's how change usually happens.

The big difference now is that the educated elite has been numbed by consumerism, and the pissed-off folks are on the bottom. That's also a bad place to be, though, as far as the government is concerned.

Re: Chinese Man Sentenced to Prison for Selling VPN Software

#25

Post by mirimir »

It's iffy for Chinese nationals to run VPN services. But then, it's similarly iffy for American nationals to run other sorts of services. Such as online gambling. Or money transfer businesses that don't respect KYC regulations.

That's just how it is. Each country gets to choose its policies. I mean, that's one of the fundamental points of being a country, isn't it?

Re: Chinese Man Sentenced to Prison for Selling VPN Software

#26

Post by djrogers »

mirimir wrote: post #25

It's iffy for Chinese nationals to run VPN services. But then, it's similarly iffy for American nationals to run other sorts of services. Such as online gambling. Or money transfer businesses that don't respect KYC regulations. That's just how it is. Each country gets to choose its policies. I mean, that's one of the fundamental points of being a country, isn't it?

> That's just how it is. Each country gets to choose its policies. I mean, that's the fundamental point of being a country, isn't it?

Yes, but that’s not what’s happening in China. The fundamental point of being a country is to serve the common good, and to protect the life and liberty of your citizens. In China the ruling party doesn’t care about any of those things.

A policy such as this would be a lot less horrible if ‘the country’ actually chose their own rules and rulers instead of a small handful of permanent party appointees. 1.3(?) billion people who have no say in these policies or in those who make them should be a tragedy no matter how cynical you are.

Re: Chinese Man Sentenced to Prison for Selling VPN Software

#27

Post by DashRattlesnake »

namelost wrote: post #12
_ptgt wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As if the CCP's "miracle" of economic development hasn't already been done in South Korea, Taiwan, etc. without the authoritarians who also brought the wonders that are The Great Leap Forward and The Cultural Revolution. Or as if India isn't already basically replicating the same feat with a democracy, but 10 years delayed. It isn't a "Western view" to understand that governments that respect human rights generally l…

Do you really think that China is capable of an easy and bloodless transition to a democratic system? Perhaps Chinese people know better than anyone just how violent revolution can be.

> Do you really think that China is capable of an easy and bloodless transition to a democratic system?

I suppose that really depends on the Communist party...

Re: Chinese Man Sentenced to Prison for Selling VPN Software

#28

Post by DashRattlesnake »

bobjordan wrote: post #19
laowaiba wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Standards of living increase year-over-year every single year I lived in China for a few years, and finally left early this year. Standard of living has been declining ever since I arrived, for me and for my local friends, many of them that were from other provinces that came to Shanghai. The declining factors included: 1.) Increasingly worse air pollution. It was not smart to exercise outdoors in the summer or win…

I'm not saying it doesn't suck for westerners. What I am saying is that from my view, which is of course constrained by all kinds of limits, my best guess hypotheses that I am putting 100% of my money on in the form of all my investments, is that it doesn't yet suck for the vast majority of Chinese in their own minds. Like a drum roll, we've been forced to give 10-20% wage increases every single year to keep my talen…

> They are not clamoring for democracy.

That's understandable, given that's against the law and would probably be a prison sentence.

Re: Chinese Man Sentenced to Prison for Selling VPN Software

#29

Post by mirimir »

djrogers wrote: post #26
mirimir wrote: post #25

It's iffy for Chinese nationals to run VPN services. But then, it's similarly iffy for American nationals to run other sorts of services. Such as online gambling. Or money transfer businesses that don't respect KYC regulations. That's just how it is. Each country gets to choose its policies. I mean, that's one of the fundamental points of being a country, isn't it?

> That's just how it is. Each country gets to choose its policies. I mean, that's the fundamental point of being a country, isn't it? Yes, but that’s not what’s happening in China. The fundamental point of being a country is to serve the common good, and to protect the life and liberty of your citizens. In China the ruling party doesn’t care about any of those things. A policy such as this would be a lot less horribl…

That's a rather simplistic characterization of the Chinese political situation. Or at least, it seems so to me, to the extent that I know enough to have an opinion.

Re: Chinese Man Sentenced to Prison for Selling VPN Software

#30

Post by FooHentai »

djrogers wrote: post #26
mirimir wrote: post #25

It's iffy for Chinese nationals to run VPN services. But then, it's similarly iffy for American nationals to run other sorts of services. Such as online gambling. Or money transfer businesses that don't respect KYC regulations. That's just how it is. Each country gets to choose its policies. I mean, that's one of the fundamental points of being a country, isn't it?

> That's just how it is. Each country gets to choose its policies. I mean, that's the fundamental point of being a country, isn't it? Yes, but that’s not what’s happening in China. The fundamental point of being a country is to serve the common good, and to protect the life and liberty of your citizens. In China the ruling party doesn’t care about any of those things. A policy such as this would be a lot less horribl…

>The fundamental point of being a country is to serve the common good, and to protect the life and liberty of your citizens.

Important to recognize that this is your worldview, and one I agree with, but it is not the only view available! There are other motivations for government to maintain the existence of the state which they govern.

For example, for some governments the motivation is to maintain the current lifestyle of them and those around them, at the expense of the populace.

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