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Chinese Man Sentenced to Prison for Selling VPN Software

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Re: Chinese Man Sentenced to Prison for Selling VPN Software

#11

Post by StanislavPetrov »

bobjordan wrote: post #6
elefanten wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

GP was describing more than just selective enforcement. And while that may happen elsewhere, it's particularly bad in China relative to their level of development and size. At what point do we stop drooling over the market size and advocate for dignity and rights for 18% of the world's population? Not to mention the danger authoritarian regimes pose just by existing. An apparatus that powerful that could be structura…

The 18%, Chinese people, do not want outsider's input on their governmental structure. On the whole (edit: "on the whole" means "most people"), they are perfectly happy with the way things are going. Standards of living increase year-over-year every single year. Until that stops, they don't want a thing to change. Now if that stops for a decade or so, maybe it will change. But that's unlikely to happen. So, it's futi…

Talking about any massive group of people as if they all share the same belief is never useful. Its one thing to suggest that some, or a majority, of Chinese support the current system, and quite another to suggest that they all do. I'm pretty sure "tank man" and countless other Chinese would disagree with your characterization of "what they want".

Re: Chinese Man Sentenced to Prison for Selling VPN Software

#12

Post by namelost »

_ptgt wrote: post #9
bobjordan wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The 18%, Chinese people, do not want outsider's input on their governmental structure. On the whole (edit: "on the whole" means "most people"), they are perfectly happy with the way things are going. Standards of living increase year-over-year every single year. Until that stops, they don't want a thing to change. Now if that stops for a decade or so, maybe it will change. But that's unlikely to happen. So, it's futi…

As if the CCP's "miracle" of economic development hasn't already been done in South Korea, Taiwan, etc. without the authoritarians who also brought the wonders that are The Great Leap Forward and The Cultural Revolution. Or as if India isn't already basically replicating the same feat with a democracy, but 10 years delayed. It isn't a "Western view" to understand that governments that respect human rights generally l…

Do you really think that China is capable of an easy and bloodless transition to a democratic system?

Perhaps Chinese people know better than anyone just how violent revolution can be.

Re: Chinese Man Sentenced to Prison for Selling VPN Software

#13

Post by girzel »

_ptgt wrote: post #9
bobjordan wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The 18%, Chinese people, do not want outsider's input on their governmental structure. On the whole (edit: "on the whole" means "most people"), they are perfectly happy with the way things are going. Standards of living increase year-over-year every single year. Until that stops, they don't want a thing to change. Now if that stops for a decade or so, maybe it will change. But that's unlikely to happen. So, it's futi…

As if the CCP's "miracle" of economic development hasn't already been done in South Korea, Taiwan, etc. without the authoritarians who also brought the wonders that are The Great Leap Forward and The Cultural Revolution. Or as if India isn't already basically replicating the same feat with a democracy, but 10 years delayed. It isn't a "Western view" to understand that governments that respect human rights generally l…

South Korea and Taiwan did do it with authoritarians. They were absolutely authoritarian governments, and they each had their own mini-revolution once their societies reached a certain level of affluence.

The difference is that China's mini-revolution (June 4, 1989) failed, where theirs succeeded.

Re: Chinese Man Sentenced to Prison for Selling VPN Software

#14

Post by guildwriter »

_ptgt wrote: post #9
bobjordan wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The 18%, Chinese people, do not want outsider's input on their governmental structure. On the whole (edit: "on the whole" means "most people"), they are perfectly happy with the way things are going. Standards of living increase year-over-year every single year. Until that stops, they don't want a thing to change. Now if that stops for a decade or so, maybe it will change. But that's unlikely to happen. So, it's futi…

As if the CCP's "miracle" of economic development hasn't already been done in South Korea, Taiwan, etc. without the authoritarians who also brought the wonders that are The Great Leap Forward and The Cultural Revolution. Or as if India isn't already basically replicating the same feat with a democracy, but 10 years delayed. It isn't a "Western view" to understand that governments that respect human rights generally l…

What are you talking about? South Korea and Taiwan may not have had those stand out moments of mass murder, but saying they didn't go through an authoritarian period is just not true. It may not have been on the same scale, but it still involved mass oppression, murder, blackmail, kidnapping, and other unsavory methods.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Terror_(Taiwan)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Park_Chung-hee#Legacy

That being said, I don't necessarily disagree with the principle of your statement about free societies being better.

Re: Chinese Man Sentenced to Prison for Selling VPN Software

#15

Post by girzel »

bobjordan wrote: post #6
elefanten wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

GP was describing more than just selective enforcement. And while that may happen elsewhere, it's particularly bad in China relative to their level of development and size. At what point do we stop drooling over the market size and advocate for dignity and rights for 18% of the world's population? Not to mention the danger authoritarian regimes pose just by existing. An apparatus that powerful that could be structura…

The 18%, Chinese people, do not want outsider's input on their governmental structure. On the whole (edit: "on the whole" means "most people"), they are perfectly happy with the way things are going. Standards of living increase year-over-year every single year. Until that stops, they don't want a thing to change. Now if that stops for a decade or so, maybe it will change. But that's unlikely to happen. So, it's futi…

That's a strange claim, given that you are not allowed to ask the Chinese people, en masse, if they like their government or not, and they are not allowed to tell you.

Until they are allowed to speak on the subject, we will not know. But the near-daily peasant uprisings around the country would tend to indicate dissatisfaction.

Re: Chinese Man Sentenced to Prison for Selling VPN Software

#16

Post by laowaiba »

bobjordan wrote: post #6
elefanten wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

GP was describing more than just selective enforcement. And while that may happen elsewhere, it's particularly bad in China relative to their level of development and size. At what point do we stop drooling over the market size and advocate for dignity and rights for 18% of the world's population? Not to mention the danger authoritarian regimes pose just by existing. An apparatus that powerful that could be structura…

The 18%, Chinese people, do not want outsider's input on their governmental structure. On the whole (edit: "on the whole" means "most people"), they are perfectly happy with the way things are going. Standards of living increase year-over-year every single year. Until that stops, they don't want a thing to change. Now if that stops for a decade or so, maybe it will change. But that's unlikely to happen. So, it's futi…

> Standards of living increase year-over-year every single year

I lived in China for a few years, and finally left early this year. Standard of living has been declining ever since I arrived, for me and for my local friends, many of them that were from other provinces that came to Shanghai. The declining factors included:

1.) Increasingly worse air pollution. It was not smart to exercise outdoors in the summer or winter.

2.) Increasingly worse water pollution (even reported by the state media). The frequency of diarrhea keeps going up.

3.) Increasingly worse food supply (there was a scandal of a company in northern China that used toxic industrial agents in common food items for 10!! years)

4.) Lack of jobs for migrants. Alot of them had to head back home to their farms.

5.) Censorship Censorship Censorship. Not a day went by that I wasn't frustrated with my VPN not being able to hit a western site.

6.) Inflation. Everything is more and more expensive, in tier 1, 2, 3, and even 88 cities. But standards haven't gone up.

7.) Anyone rich is trying to get out. Australia, US, Canada, anywhere.

Lastly, 8.) Chinese government regressing into a dictatorship, with the possibility of Xi Jin Ping taking a 3rd term.

Re: Chinese Man Sentenced to Prison for Selling VPN Software

#17

Post by bobjordan »

girzel wrote: post #15
bobjordan wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The 18%, Chinese people, do not want outsider's input on their governmental structure. On the whole (edit: "on the whole" means "most people"), they are perfectly happy with the way things are going. Standards of living increase year-over-year every single year. Until that stops, they don't want a thing to change. Now if that stops for a decade or so, maybe it will change. But that's unlikely to happen. So, it's futi…

That's a strange claim, given that you are not allowed to ask the Chinese people, en masse, if they like their government or not, and they are not allowed to tell you. Until they are allowed to speak on the subject, we will not know. But the near-daily peasant uprisings around the country would tend to indicate dissatisfaction.

You are correct in that I cannot canvass the 1.4 Billion population "en massee". I'm constrained to navigate the world and form opinions based on incomplete information. But, given I run a company here in China and have been here for 8 years, I'm a bit skeptical when I hear all the hyperbolic pitch fork raising from westerners who likely haven't spent much time here and had long term exposure to the culture and the people. I can tell you that your assertion "they are not allowed to tell you" is a very strange claim itself to me. I've had plenty of conversations about this with my employees. As a westerner, yes you'd better watch your words. But it's common for them to hear me rail about internet issues and they just snicker and move on. But make no mistake, the people are rabid Nationalists. They've been living under single party rule for thousands of years. Their economy will be the strongest on the planet, #1, eventually and that time will be soon. Anyone that thinks they are going to start a movement to force China to change, better not hold their breath. Yes, it is strongly moving more authoritarian here regarding the internet and free speech. That sucks for us westerners but the extreme vast majority of Chinese people I am exposed to, they could not care less.

Re: Chinese Man Sentenced to Prison for Selling VPN Software

#18

Post by nthcolumn »

pasbesoin wrote: post #7

Rubber hose policing of the Internet. Just remember that, as with The Great Firewall and the (commercial) development and initial sales of its technologies, so too with this: China is the prototype.

They get all their best ideas from UK.

Re: Chinese Man Sentenced to Prison for Selling VPN Software

#19

Post by bobjordan »

laowaiba wrote: post #16
bobjordan wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The 18%, Chinese people, do not want outsider's input on their governmental structure. On the whole (edit: "on the whole" means "most people"), they are perfectly happy with the way things are going. Standards of living increase year-over-year every single year. Until that stops, they don't want a thing to change. Now if that stops for a decade or so, maybe it will change. But that's unlikely to happen. So, it's futi…

> Standards of living increase year-over-year every single year I lived in China for a few years, and finally left early this year. Standard of living has been declining ever since I arrived, for me and for my local friends, many of them that were from other provinces that came to Shanghai. The declining factors included: 1.) Increasingly worse air pollution. It was not smart to exercise outdoors in the summer or win…

I'm not saying it doesn't suck for westerners. What I am saying is that from my view, which is of course constrained by all kinds of limits, my best guess hypotheses that I am putting 100% of my money on in the form of all my investments, is that it doesn't yet suck for the vast majority of Chinese in their own minds. Like a drum roll, we've been forced to give 10-20% wage increases every single year to keep my talent. Engineers that worked for me four years ago started out riding the bus. Now, they've all bought a new car at some point. Several make more than I did at 25. They are not clamoring for democracy.

Re: Chinese Man Sentenced to Prison for Selling VPN Software

#20

Post by gozur88 »

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #3
saagarjha wrote: post #2

The man was charged with "violat[ing] state regulations and intrud[ing] into computer systems with information concerning state affairs, construction of defense facilities, and sophisticated science and technology." It's bizarre interpretations of the law like this, that don't even fit the "crime", that show that the underlying reason was to send a message instead of actually performing a legitimate arrest.

China doesn't really have rule of law. If they want to make an example of you, they will find a way to do it. Judge's are completely deferrent to officials in that way, and there is no judicial review. It is just classic rule by law (laws are weaponized to serve whatever purpose vs. being fairly applied).

"Rule of law" is really a spectrum. China may be toward the arbitrary end, but maybe not as much as we'd like to believe. Prosecutors in the US have enormous power, which is why 98% of US federal cases are pled out.
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