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It’s time to balance the power between workers and employers

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191–200 of 224 posts

Re: It’s time to balance the power between workers and employers

#191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I really don't like the framing of that. Good countries get the hell out of the way while people use their inherent power of self-determination. If someone powerful spends their time "empowering" you, it means you had none in the first place.

>If someone powerful spends their time "empowering" you, it means you had none in the first place. Is that not reasonable? The 'inherent power of self-determination' is pretty weak all things considered. Governments exist to help 'empower' in the myriad of ways that can undermine self-determination.

As an American and having lived (not visited - lived) in a number of countries besides the US, I can say with some certainty that the American ideal of the 'inherent power of self-determination' is greatly exaggerated in the US and far weaker in other places. Government policy and leadership absolutely has an effect on this behavior.

Re: It’s time to balance the power between workers and employers

#192
post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The conversation in threads never goes beyond this point. Yes, this is by design - and crickets (usually). Even if it were by design, how can it be countered or worked around.

In order to supplant an ideology, you need a new ideology. A coherent set of ideas, rather than a disparate list of complaints. When people understand (or at least think they understand) where their beliefs are taking them they're more likely to work together, which is necessary to accomplish anything. That's why communists, fascists, Christianists, Islamists, and anarcho-capitalists have organizations and magazines…

I've been thinking about this for a while now, and the core of the divide seems to be that people divide themselves into groups and seek advantages from one another as if they're playing a zero sum game. That may or may not be by design, but it's what I believe to be the "how" of it.

The only solution that's ever worked to turn that around is sacrafice. People need to start intentionally engaging in "losing" propositions to win hearts and minds to a cause. It's only by delivering gifts that you can turn a competitive game into a cooperative game where everyone wins together. If everyone insists that they win first, then you're stuck.

Re: It’s time to balance the power between workers and employers

#193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> To me, being wealthy means being able to live a comfortable life without worrying about your next paycheck Americans generally use middle-class to refer to this state. Things are good, you have a paycheck or two of slack, you can make a healthy retirement contribution and save a little each month, own (via debt) a decent house and car, go out to eat a few times a month, not pinch pennies at the grocery store, etc.…

Real wealth is not having debt.

that's not right. real wealth is having a low cost of capital.

the wealthy tend to carry debt because it's plentiful and cheap for them. access to cheap money gives them access to better returns than the average bear. if you are not wealthy, debt is expensive and not nearly as rewarding.

but having debt, of course, doesn't imply you are wealthy.

Re: It’s time to balance the power between workers and employers

#194
This observation came to a head for me during a conversation with my fiance about tuition costs.

I went to Stevens Institute of Technology, a private engineering school in New Jersey. When I started my schooling in 2005, the average tuition, not including room and board, was a little under $27,000. [1] It is now a little over $50,000, again, excluding room and board. [2]

I studied Computer Engineering. The average salary for a computer programmer in 2009 (I didn't graduate until 2010 but had a job starting in 2009) was $64,036. [3] Today? $79,840.

So despite the average wage for my work increasing by 20%, my school's tuition went up by over double that.

After factoring in rapidly increasing housing costs, it became evident to me that (a) I'm in a race to increase my compensation before everything else goes up, and (b) unless our government does something to curb these rapidly increase college tuition prices, there is a significant chance that unless I make and save A LOT of money in the next 20 years, my future children, should we have any, will either not be able to attend the same college as me (or similar), or they will be in debt for MUCH longer than me.

[1] https://books.google.com/books?id=HiS0BrWXz9QC&pg=PA562&lpg=...

[2] https://www.stevens.edu/admissions/tuition-financial-aid/tui...

[3] http://www.worldsalaries.org/computerprogrammer.shtml

[4] https://www.bls.gov/ooh/computer-and-information-technology/...

Re: It’s time to balance the power between workers and employers

#195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think we need to better manage expectations of living space. Renters have no right to live forever in the same apartment, and if they can't pay rent, they have to move. Homeowners pay rent in the form of property taxes to the government, and likewise: if you can't pay your rent, you gotta move. So you won a lottery ticket? You pay your taxes or go to jail. So you got lucky with your home purchase? You pay your taxe…

This seems antithetical to the concept of ownership. If it's my house, why do I have to give it up just because someone with more money wants it? Why should my taxes go up, just because people value my property at an increased rate? Property taxes are supposed to fund the services provided by the local government, not evict poor people for the benefit of the rich. You suggest that buying a house that people want is l…

Two points:

1) Someone's getting taxed, somewhere. The question is what we want to incentivize.

Working hard for a living? Saving money and investing it to grow the economy? Purchasing food to feed and garments to clothe your family? Trading with people outside the country who make things more efficiently than you can?

Or sitting on underutilized land?

No matter what, someone's ox gets gored. The key is that it should be oriented around good public policy, and that people should have the time to incorporate policy changes into their decision making process.

2) You seem unrealistically worried about government coming in and removing people from houses they own at gunpoint. The actual worst case scenario is someone gets a reverse mortgage from the bank to pay property tax with equity from the home, and they end up bequeathing a smaller proportion of wealth to their heirs when they pass.

Re: It’s time to balance the power between workers and employers

#196
post #88
post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is funny :) Maybe ~20% of Americans are well-enough off that they feel wealthy. But they have no clue what real wealth is. And indeed, in day-to-day life, it's pretty much invisible. Edit: Gotta quote this: > All of this adds up to a terrain incredibly inhospitable to class-based politics. Every few years a group of millionaire Democratic presidential aspirants pretends to be the people's warriors against the ov…

> But they have no clue what real wealth is. I think measuring "real wealth" by some relative metric like "top 1%" is misguided. To me, being wealthy means being able to live a comfortable life without worrying about your next paycheck. I'm from Germany, but studying in China on a scholarship. The 1000 euros per month I get wouldn't put me among the German 1%, but in a country with a lower cost of living, I spend onl…

As far as I'm concerned, real wealth is the point at which you no longer have to work because your money is working for you AND that money is producing enough for you to be in the top 1% of earners in your country. (I believe that is $250k/year in the US, though I'd be fine with $100-150k)

Why is this important? Because at that point, you can do, say or believe WHATEVER YOU WANT without fear of losing your job and you have the capital and network to influence others.

To me, that's about $20M ($10M in my case) invested in a boring old three headed portfolio (50% index, 25% bonds, 25% international index).

Earning $20M for the sole purpose of saving it is not easy. The only ways i know of acquiring that wealth is through an inheritance, a significant liquidity event or by stealing it.

Re: It’s time to balance the power between workers and employers

#197
post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you just graduated from college with no money and debt how could you have a house? Also that is currently how bankruptcy works anyway. >Personal bankruptcy could result in 2-3 years of handing over most of your income to the state (which distributes across the original loan providers) That is even worse than how bankruptcy works right now for most debts. There already is loan forgiveness after so many years for st…

> If you just graduated from college with no money and debt Require a guarantor

Then just don't get a student loan at all. Just get a regular loan.

Re: It’s time to balance the power between workers and employers

#198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> To me, being wealthy means being able to live a comfortable life without worrying about your next paycheck Americans generally use middle-class to refer to this state. Things are good, you have a paycheck or two of slack, you can make a healthy retirement contribution and save a little each month, own (via debt) a decent house and car, go out to eat a few times a month, not pinch pennies at the grocery store, etc.…

Real wealth is not having debt.

Nah. Someone with $25k assets and $20k debt is substantially wealthier (i.e. can use their money to accomplish more purposes) than someone with only $5k.

Having a major asset (like a house) owned outright might be closer to "real wealth" territory.

Re: It’s time to balance the power between workers and employers

#199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think we need to better manage expectations of living space. Renters have no right to live forever in the same apartment, and if they can't pay rent, they have to move. Homeowners pay rent in the form of property taxes to the government, and likewise: if you can't pay your rent, you gotta move. So you won a lottery ticket? You pay your taxes or go to jail. So you got lucky with your home purchase? You pay your taxe…

This seems antithetical to the concept of ownership. If it's my house, why do I have to give it up just because someone with more money wants it? Why should my taxes go up, just because people value my property at an increased rate? Property taxes are supposed to fund the services provided by the local government, not evict poor people for the benefit of the rich. You suggest that buying a house that people want is l…

>Property taxes are supposed to fund the services provided by the local government, not evict poor people for the benefit of the rich.

Not so from my observations.

But your taxing authority would like you to think so. They actually have always been rich too, and that's who they favor even if none of their people are individually paid that much.

Property taxes are directly based on "socage" and "quitrents" which provided a clear legal framework to formalize the right to evict poor people for the benefit of the rich.

https://www.britannica.com/topic/socage

OTOH inheritance or estate tax is based on the medieval concept of "relief" where the tenant's next-of-kin is supposedly giving relief to the landowner who would otherwise not know where his next Shilling was coming from once the previous tenant passed away. Or the landowner is giving relief to the surviving inheritors so they will not be evicted as long as they pay what amounts to a windfall bonus for the taxing authority who can then celebrate the death of a taxpayer in appropriate style. Whatever.

https://www.britannica.com/topic/relief-medieval-tax

US states originated as British colonies under this system and it has changed as little as possible with the continuous enforcement of your local constable.

There was also the effect which requires a tenant (owner or lessor) to produce enough from the land itself or remit in some other way, otherwise the parcel will be confiscated and someone else will be given a try.

The idea was to keep "all men are created equal" from coming true financially for the disadvantaged at a time when the King held ultimate title to all land. His local representatives would be today's county judge and tax assessor-collector, with the enforcer being the county sheriff and whatever his punishment at the time happened to be. No surprise that it seems so medieval to almost be unbelievable today, but that is the unbroken history.

Property taxes would not actually be necessary in a truly free country based on commerce, free enterprise and fairness.

Rather than perpetuating the differential between landowner and peasant as much as possible, untaxed land would tend toward flatter stewardship of the most desirable parcels allowing the maximum utilization of a limited resource when needed without the landowner requiring such a high income from the property itself to support all of today's effective "middlemen" just to retain title to it.

Interesting case study:

http://scholarship.law.marquette.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?art...

>Why should the rich person's luck be rewarded by forcing the poor to give up their home and move somewhere worse?

Sometimes that's the only reward being seeked by those whose riches originated in similar ways, or through no productive effort of their own.

"Today's weirdness is tomorrow's reason why"__Hunter S. Thompson

Re: It’s time to balance the power between workers and employers

#200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Real wealth is not having debt.

I have no debt, some liquid assets, but still rent. I know I'm better off than a lot of the country but being in the top n% of income in the wealthiest country in the world but enjoying little of the amenities besides basic infrastructure seems difficult for me to think of myself in any way as "wealthy." Unencumbered is ahead of many but I think I'd far rather have $400k income (and, more importantly, the social stat…

With the increasing number of the middle class including full-time workers becoming homeless (especially now in Houston) some homeful people would be best to become less rejecting of the homeless and/or mentally affected who lost traction before them. Especially in such a case where it's so obvious that there but for the grace of god they go.

Regardless of natural disaster or not, the prevailing cutoff line is coming after your low six-figure income, since there's not much foundation remaining below that level.

If you are providing shelter or a more extensive domestic environment those are not functionally very much like six significant figures anyway, but you knew that.

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