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It’s time to balance the power between workers and employers

washingtonpost.com

161–170 of 224 posts

Re: It’s time to balance the power between workers and employers

#161

Isn't the balance of power between workers and employers in Silicon Valley massively lopsided in favor of the former? We have companies that are losing money paying their engineers six-digit salaries. Restoring the balance is the last thing this place needs.

Oh, then it's a good thing the article was talking entirely about Silicon Valley.

Oh, wait...

Re: It’s time to balance the power between workers and employers

#162
post #89
post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's not forget that unions can also become detrimental to employees' working environment. In France unions are very powerful and unionists when going on strike, prevent non-unionists from working, and retaliate against folks who do not agree with their agenda - this goes against individual employee freedom and becomes another form of coercion. And unionists, no matter how piss poor a job they do, can never be fired…

> And unionists, no matter how piss poor a job they do, can never be fired (in theory they can, but in practice it never happens). Do you mean union leaders or regular members? Because if it's the latter, then you have a counterexample in every 100% unionized company that ever fired anyone.

He means "delegates", kinda like union leader but not exactly.

But they can absolutely be fired, they are simply a protected class of workers, meaning they cannot be fired because of their delegate status, but can be because of anything else. It's very similar to the US protected classes of workers.

A very simple Google search will show you they do get fired from time to time, e.g just 3 month ago: http://www.courrier-picard.fr/32021/article/2017-05-22/le-de...

The guy got fired for cause after 26 years in the company, because of a coffee break that lasted too long. Due to his protected status, a court has to validate the firing, and in this case they did.

@ekianjo is simply dwelling on the common French entrepreneurs narrative that the law is anti-business, etc.

Re: It’s time to balance the power between workers and employers

#163
post #142

Richard Wolff has also been evangelizing co-ops and worker-owned businesses for some time. http://www.rdwolff.com/faq_worker_coops_wdes https://youtu.be/urCy3UOGgx8

I don't understand why there are not more co-ops in this world. In Canada, Mountain Equipment Co-Op (MEC) is the all-in-one kick-ass outdoor store (like REI). It is a co-op, so you pay $5 for a lifetime membership. The place does not make a profit. All expenses are paid, all employees earn their living. At the end of the year, if they accidentally made a profit, they simply return the extra money to all the members o…

REI is a coop as well, with a somewhat similar dividend structure. However I doubt that all of the profits are fully distributed at the end of the year to members. I would bet that there are 'members' who are investors/owners, not typical consumers, who actually take some of the profit home (but that is a guess, I am happy to be wrong). And of course any business should have savings as well, for multi-year capital expenditures, incidents and accidents, etc.

Re: It’s time to balance the power between workers and employers

#164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, there are "reductio ad absurdum" arguments - which attempt to show that an argument is bad because it leads to absurd conclusions. And as its fancy latin name suggests, its as old as the ages, and is often a reasonable form of argument.

The poster "reductio ad absurdum"ed after he "non sequitur"ed. A valid reductio requires applying the principle of charity first though. We do need a Latin phrase for the principle of charity!

[deleted]

Re: It’s time to balance the power between workers and employers

#165
post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think we're fully in the "see what little you can pay someone to get them to do a job" optimization mode. The marginal cost=marginal benefit argument doesn't seem to apply anywhere. On the contrary, if you're actively making something (burgers, computers) then you're usually not paid enough to actually consume those things on a regular schedule. I think that's a symptom of an emergent caste system.

So each Boeing worker should be able to buy their own 787 Dreamliner in any fair society?

Good concept here where there should not be misunderstanding.

When Henry Ford attempted to build the first commodity private motorcar for the middle class worker whilst also paying his assembly line workers enough to afford one of their own from their wages alone it was by design a very delicate balance. The idea was to enable someone, even without significant resources or higher education, who had the aptitude and is a hard worker to become an employee and in a measurable way start to join the middle class their own self. The assembly line was engineered to be profitable enough to accomplish this to begin with. What this meant was being able to gradually afford a house, a car, a spouse, and kids on one worker's income of course. Could be accelerated with overtime. Upward mobility financially by productive labor alone without having to receive a promotion in the workplace, or having to rely on family or other resources to become established.

Ford's factory as a system was created to be a value- and money-making-machine with everyone involved moving ahead together.

This element of mass-production of a new commodity for a large target class while simulaneously enabling new workers to enter the target class from their labor alone is one of the things that allows it to scale so well, and when this element is compromised the scaling may be unsteady and/or unsustainable.

This element is also not very present on the Boeing assembly line. Mass-produced commercial aircraft are still commodities but no middle class person is expected to purchase one using their labor alone. Balance is required but at a different pivot point. With Ford starting at a 0X target the degree of balance should be more obvious and easier to maintain. Boeing is a good example of the opposite extreme, those aircraft are so expensive who knows what multiple would be required just to get something like that off the ground. The higher the labor multiple like this you would think the more difficult the balance would be to maintain, but of course any multiple is huge compared to zero. And there's no more benchmark for anybody since the US dollar is so compromised now, a worker may have to do lots of overtime just to afford a car that's reliable enough to get to work in the first place, which can keep a home itself out of reach for their forseeable future.

Anyway, there have always been craftsworkers who build unique things for royalty, others who mass-produce commodities intended for the middle class, and anything in between. Either way the most successful can sell all that they can make.

New cars and aircraft are not designed for those whose resources are so low that they are below middle class. Such low-resource individuals can only maintain economically by doing without the full-price commodities of the middle class, substituting with second-hand and surplus commodities when possible. For them, higher expenditure levels can be unsound but are often entertained in order to give the appearance of full middle-class status. For instance the purchase of a brand new car or brand new home instead of second-hand may provide some degree of comfort but can seriously hamper any true progress up into the full middle class, especially for someone who is making a credit purchase.

You're not truly in the middle class unless you can actually afford to pay cash for the true middle class commodities. Extravagances on credit maybe but not necessities or common commodities.

Seems to me that when assembly lines are truly bettering the wealth of their workers, everything goes well until you can no longer sell all that you can make.

Uh-oh.

Employers are always going to have the upper hand, but during cutbacks even the truly generous payers can seldom recover anything significant by limiting employee compensation without being quite destructive to the structure that the founder had built. Employee cutbacks beyond a certain level, or in the case of employers who are on the edge by paying "market" or "competitive" rates, will end up generally halting employee's upward mobility in a tangible way. Even under the most severe conditions, shareholders with strengh and conviction are supposed to be there to absorb almost all of the financial fluctuations. Capitalists who fail to intentionally restore prosperity to their employees as soon as possible seem to be a great source of opportunity for a union to become competitive in offering more to the employees in bulk than the actual employer is doing on their own at the time.

Balancing the employee's entire financial opportunity versus a relatively small percentage of the bottom line is not easy even when it's intentionally generous.

Employee prosperity is always at the discretion of the involved capitalist, and the labor market is suposed to be set by comparison to how productive those workers would be if in business individually or teaming in a way that allows them to absorb almost all of the gains or losses from operations themselves.

Looks like without undue extraneous influence, capitalism involving other people's money would not be as rewarding compared to plain entrepreneurialism where the worker has the resources to fund the venture independently of other people's money.

How absurd is that?

Re: It’s time to balance the power between workers and employers

#166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't a land value tax punitive to poor people who buy cheap land which then becomes valuable for some reason? Let's say I have low cash flow and bought a reasonably priced house in silicon valley in 1975. Should I basically be forced out of my house in 2010 because a bunch of ultra wealthy companies opened offices a few miles away?

The companies are ultra-wealthy because they are producing high value for society.

Or enclosing the value generated by others.

Because that works too.

Re: It’s time to balance the power between workers and employers

#167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The solution is pretty straightforward. Replace all taxes on labor and earned income with a land value tax. This will increase disposable income of workers by directly decreasing taxes on wages, by lowering the cost of housing by disincentivizng speculative land investment, and by increasing the supply and margin of production of rent-free land, the later of which increases the bargaining power of workers per Ricardo…

Isn't a land value tax punitive to poor people who buy cheap land which then becomes valuable for some reason? Let's say I have low cash flow and bought a reasonably priced house in silicon valley in 1975. Should I basically be forced out of my house in 2010 because a bunch of ultra wealthy companies opened offices a few miles away?

So your example of poor people that it affects punitively is a rich person who owns millions in assets?

I guess that answers your question that it doesn't affect poor people. It's almost directly analogous to saying that the estate tax affects poor people who win the lottery. Both have received massive benefits unrelated to their efforts and are no longer poor, so talking about them as if they were seems like sophistry.

Re: It’s time to balance the power between workers and employers

#168
post #142

Richard Wolff has also been evangelizing co-ops and worker-owned businesses for some time. http://www.rdwolff.com/faq_worker_coops_wdes https://youtu.be/urCy3UOGgx8

I don't understand why there are not more co-ops in this world. In Canada, Mountain Equipment Co-Op (MEC) is the all-in-one kick-ass outdoor store (like REI). It is a co-op, so you pay $5 for a lifetime membership. The place does not make a profit. All expenses are paid, all employees earn their living. At the end of the year, if they accidentally made a profit, they simply return the extra money to all the members o…

Sweden has quite a few dominant coops. The ones listed here all have history dating back to between 1899-1931

Around 20% of grocery retail is by co-ops https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kooperativa_Förbundet

The largest dairy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arla_Foods The second largest dairy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milko_(Swedish_cooperative) The third largest was a co-op until it was sold to a French conglomerate in 2012 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skånemejerier

One of the largest housing corporations https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HSB_(Sweden)

The largest insurance provider https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Folksam as well as another of the largest ones https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Länsförsäkringar

Re: It’s time to balance the power between workers and employers

#169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, not for themselves but for society. If you like the way Germany, The Netherlands, and the Nordics do things, you should know that these countries have very high levels of union membership, up to 80%. Their broad labor movements created the societies they have today. Unions in America never had that much strength and never accomplished as much.

Yet pay for software developers in those companies is so much less than for those in America.

If you account for rent in SF and healthcare, I am not sure it is so much less.

Re: It’s time to balance the power between workers and employers

#170
post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But they have no clue what real wealth is. I think measuring "real wealth" by some relative metric like "top 1%" is misguided. To me, being wealthy means being able to live a comfortable life without worrying about your next paycheck. I'm from Germany, but studying in China on a scholarship. The 1000 euros per month I get wouldn't put me among the German 1%, but in a country with a lower cost of living, I spend onl…

I agree that there's far more to life satisfaction than money. But that's a different conversation. The point here is that people support policies that favor the top 1% because they foolishly believe that they're part of that top 1%. Or because they believe that they will be. Or because they believe that said 1% drives the economy.

> The point here is that people support policies that favor the top 1% because they foolishly believe that they're part of that top 1%.

Or because they do not believe in taking from others in order to themselves have something.

You literally ascribe people's actions and beliefs to foolishness, when a little introspection will show that others are not necessarily being foolish.

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