It’s time to balance the power between workers and employers • Hacker News Board

Re: It’s time to balance the power between workers and employers

#131

Post by alkonaut » Mon, Sep 04, 2017, 9:27 AM UTC

danblick wrote: post #9

Software developers are already highly paid with lots of perks. Do they need unions?

Well yes and no. Unions for white collar workers are pretty different from "traditional" unions.

I'm a software developer making nearly $100k (That's probably $200k in Silicon Valley dollars) and I'm a union member.

Now, my union isn't a blue collar union in the traditional sense. My union is just an employer organization to e.g. push mandatory contract contents like flexible pension age, insurance issues etc. It's a white collar union. They don't negotiate salaries for their members. If I ever end up in a situation where I need legal help, e.g. I'm quarantined when leaving an employer and think it's unfair - I can ask my union for legal help. They also provide an unemployment insurance to bolster the public insurance for their members (if the public provides 50% of income, the union one adds to that so get maybe 80 or 90% of your income).

Blue collar unions on the other hand represent people who are replacable. The union is their only way of achieving bargaining power against employers. Blue collar unions typically negotiate wages and raises for all members at the company. Blue collar unions may have to go on strike etc, whereas white collar unions rarely do. That means my union fee might be 1/4 of what a blue collar union costs per month, since the white collar unions don't need a stash of money to live through a strike.

So these are fundamentally different organisations. My union is more like a legal aid + insurance deal that costs me a few bucks per month.

Now: you could argue that with my relative power over my employer, shouldn't I be able to just negotiate this myself? I should be able to retire when I want? I should be able to just hire a lawyer when I need one? And buy unemployment insurance at market rate? Well yes, I suppose. But the insurance is actually pretty good valuye for union members (we are considered less likely to be unemployed so the premium is much lower) and I'm happy to buy all that stuff as a package deal. I like the idea of someone representing my group and not just me.

Re: It’s time to balance the power between workers and employers

#132

Post by Aeolun » Mon, Sep 04, 2017, 9:27 AM UTC

icelancer wrote: post #74

sillysaurus3 wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the argument goes: We make table scraps compared to the amount that a corporation rakes in. Yet we're the sole reason they're able to rake in that amount of money. Not that I agree with it, but that's an argument.

>>I think the argument goes: We make table scraps compared to the amount that a corporation rakes in. Yet we're the sole reason they're able to rake in that amount of money. I know you don't agree with it, so I'm not ascribing this to you, but of the set of people who believe that, then why are so many startups failing left and right and laying off workers because their products don't hit critical mass? Millions of d…

Larger? You mean, they find another investor and start a new failed company? I don't know, but one of the few things these people seem perfectly competent at is pitching.

Re: It’s time to balance the power between workers and employers

#133

Post by hoschicz » Mon, Sep 04, 2017, 9:38 AM UTC

ekianjo wrote: post #129

yorwba wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And unionists, no matter how piss poor a job they do, can never be fired (in theory they can, but in practice it never happens). Do you mean union leaders or regular members? Because if it's the latter, then you have a counterexample in every 100% unionized company that ever fired anyone.

More specifically union leaders, who have the whole weight of the union behind them.

That's the incentive to form unions.

Re: It’s time to balance the power between workers and employers

#134

Post by alkonaut » Mon, Sep 04, 2017, 9:40 AM UTC

ianai wrote: post #41

ThrustVectoring wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I really don't like the framing of that. Good countries get the hell out of the way while people use their inherent power of self-determination. If someone powerful spends their time "empowering" you, it means you had none in the first place.

I was attempting to paraphrase Adam Smith. "No society can surely be flourishing and happy, of which the far greater part of the members are poor and miserable." Adam Smith That's the context I meant for the word "empower".

Would you agree that among the best things an individual blue collar worker can do with that empowerment is to team up with others in a union?

Re: It’s time to balance the power between workers and employers

#135

Post by coldtea » Mon, Sep 04, 2017, 9:41 AM UTC

ZeroGravitas wrote: post #127

icelancer wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>But there are at least a couple problems. First, many Americans are apparently convinced that some other issue is central in American politics. Maybe it's threats from foreigners. Or from Satan, or some proxy of his. Or perhaps, it's losing their guns. Or whatever. This is very much by design. The state and controlling money interests are happy if people are complaining about guns, weed, LGBT rights, neo-Nazi march…

I'm confused by your dichotomy. Isn't the war on drugs an issue that affects economic insecurity and/or civil liberties? Don't LGBT-rights affect economic insecurity and/or civil liberties? Don't people waving Nazi banners have manifestos that directly affect economic insecurity and/or civil liberties of those they target? Is it just because they don't affect you directly that you've mentally put them in the "distrac…

No, it's because most of these problems solve themselves when there's economic security.

Re: It’s time to balance the power between workers and employers

#136

Post by coldtea » Mon, Sep 04, 2017, 9:42 AM UTC

mirimir wrote: post #104

intended wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The conversation in threads never goes beyond this point. Yes, this is by design - and crickets (usually). Even if it were by design, how can it be countered or worked around.

I'm not sure what else there is to say. Realizing what's going on doesn't accomplish much. I mean, what's going on has been obvious for decades.

Well, the majority still doesn't seem to get it.

And even those who feel it instictively, often can't express it well.

Re: It’s time to balance the power between workers and employers

#137

Post by arjie » Mon, Sep 04, 2017, 9:44 AM UTC

colanderman wrote: post #78

ryandrake wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The article is from a while ago, but I wouldn't be surprised if it were still true: 19% of Americans think they are in the top 1% and 20% more expect to be one day [1]. So a full 39% of Americans either suck at math or actually believe that by rewarding wealthy capitalists they are actually rewarding themselves! 1: http://www.nytimes.com/2003/01/12/opinion/the-triumph-of-hop...

Well, those 20% aren't so deluded. In fact 12% of all Americans do enter the top 1% at least for a year. [1] (Granted it's not clear from the above link whether the poll question was worded to clarify this ambiguity.) [1] https://www.nytimes.com/2014/04/20/opinion/sunday/from-rags-...

So 12% of Americans sell a home at least once in their lives?

Re: It’s time to balance the power between workers and employers

#138

Post by alkonaut » Mon, Sep 04, 2017, 9:49 AM UTC

yorwba wrote: post #89

ekianjo wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's not forget that unions can also become detrimental to employees' working environment. In France unions are very powerful and unionists when going on strike, prevent non-unionists from working, and retaliate against folks who do not agree with their agenda - this goes against individual employee freedom and becomes another form of coercion. And unionists, no matter how piss poor a job they do, can never be fired…

> And unionists, no matter how piss poor a job they do, can never be fired (in theory they can, but in practice it never happens). Do you mean union leaders or regular members? Because if it's the latter, then you have a counterexample in every 100% unionized company that ever fired anyone.

> Do you mean union leaders or regular members? Because if it's the latter, then you have a counterexample in every 100% unionized company that ever fired anyone

This is an interesting point. In countries with well functioning high organization such as Sweden (but unlike France) the key to the situation is the peace agreement (yes it's literally called that) between unions and employers.

Basically: unions promise to work during the whole contract period. So when strikes happen, it's when the contracts are renegotiated, which happens e.g. every two years. If the parts can't reach a new agreement, unions go on strike. Unions don't just strike willy nilly in the middle of the contract period. Employers actually quite like this: it gives them stability and a competitive edge over countries where production might be disrupted by a strike at any point.

Strikes that happen in the middle of a contract period are called "wild strikes" and are usually not sanctioned by unions. These are very rare, compared to e.g. Denmark and France.

The union's power is tremendous when it's actually allowed to use it. For example, it typically blockades everyone from working. Even if a non-union member would want to work, the employer usually doesn't dare letting them. And even if the employer would want to keep operating with other employers, the union usually gets help from all other unions to ensure the employer can't do anything (deliveries don't work, garbage collection doesn't happen etc).

Re: It’s time to balance the power between workers and employers

#139

Post by elmar » Mon, Sep 04, 2017, 9:53 AM UTC

Sir_Cmpwn wrote: post #119

elmar wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

More recent articles (2017) Welcome to Flatland: Valve’s Unique Culture https://medium.com/fluree/welcome-to-flatland-valves-unique-... Half-life projects “ultimately just starve to death” in Valve’s company culture, says alleged insider https://www.vg247.com/2017/01/12/half-life-projects-ultimate...

But I don't think this is based on any new evidence of what their culture is like. The only source they mention is the (old) employee handbook. Edit: the parent comment added the second link in an edit.

> Half-life projects “ultimately just starve to death” in Valve’s company culture, says alleged insider

Looks like this organisation structure favors some type of projects and neglects others.

Re: It’s time to balance the power between workers and employers

#140

Post by Sir_Cmpwn » Mon, Sep 04, 2017, 9:57 AM UTC

elmar wrote: post #139

Sir_Cmpwn wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But I don't think this is based on any new evidence of what their culture is like. The only source they mention is the (old) employee handbook. Edit: the parent comment added the second link in an edit.

> Half-life projects “ultimately just starve to death” in Valve’s company culture, says alleged insider Looks like this organisation structure favors some type of projects and neglects others.

I'm not sure if that structure even still exists. The article mentions that half life projects failed to gain support from "upper echelons", a group that does not exist under the alledged organizational structure.