It’s time to balance the power between workers and employers • Hacker News Board

Re: It’s time to balance the power between workers and employers

#91

Post by mirimir » Mon, Sep 04, 2017, 6:55 AM UTC

icelancer wrote: post #72

mirimir wrote: post #34

> The central issue in American politics is the economic security of the middle class and their sense of opportunity for their children. Maybe for Mr. Summers, it is. And maybe as well, for liberals generally. But there are at least a couple problems. First, many Americans are apparently convinced that some other issue is central in American politics. Maybe it's threats from foreigners. Or from Satan, or some proxy o…

>>But there are at least a couple problems. First, many Americans are apparently convinced that some other issue is central in American politics. Maybe it's threats from foreigners. Or from Satan, or some proxy of his. Or perhaps, it's losing their guns. Or whatever. This is very much by design. The state and controlling money interests are happy if people are complaining about guns, weed, LGBT rights, neo-Nazi march…

More to the point, those interests are very good at manipulating people. And doing the old divide and conquer ploy. Creating a crisis, and reaching a false resolution.

I'm guessing that they'll become our AI overlords.

Re: It’s time to balance the power between workers and employers

#92

Post by 0xB31B1B » Mon, Sep 04, 2017, 6:57 AM UTC

Animats wrote: post #49

Union, Yes. The US has weak unions because labor law enforcement is so weak. No administration has done much about that in decades. 11% of US employees belong to a union. 32% in Canada. Read "Confessions of a Union Buster" for background. In theory, whether to organize a union in the US is entirely up to the workers. The employer has no say in the matter. Few people even know that. Employers try hard to maintain that…

Unions are implemented differently in the US and elsewhere. IMHO the case law around unions in the US sets up a perverse incentive structure that results in an antagonistic relationship between capital and labor, ex: Supreme Court ruling requires that unions protect all of their members from firing, even the obviously terrible ones, this has resulted in huge inefficiencies for workers AND capital alike. Other countries like Germany have better union implementations, such that the union usually has a seat on the board of directors and is able to better set company policy in a non antagonistic non zero sum way.

Re: It’s time to balance the power between workers and employers

#93

Post by pmiller2 » Mon, Sep 04, 2017, 6:58 AM UTC

Wage slavery is a real thing in America today. I'm in almost the 95th percentile of income in the US today (although I wasn't always so lucky), and, if I were to somehow lose my job tomorrow, my first priority would be to find a new one ASAP, because I wouldn't be able to pay rent after less than 6 months of unemployment. Most people are not so fortunate. Even the most well-off Americans only have about $164K saved in their retirement accounts [0]. Real wages have been flat for decades [1]. Half of Americans don't have $500 in emergency savings [2].

My employer has nearly 100 employees; I have one employer. The job "market" is designed to create information asymmetry between me and my employer that ensures I'm not getting the best deal I can when negotiating for a job. I'm expected to give a reasonable amount of notice before leaving my job, but no such expectation generally exists on the other side of the table. I can be fired for almost any reason, or no reason. When I was hired, I had to sign an agreement signing away any right I had to ever sue my employer in court for any reason.

Now, even granted that some of these things are not necessarily going to be relevant to my particular situation (e.g. I don't really foresee any need to sue my employer, and I don't think they're going to fire me for no reason at all), what side of the table does the huge majority of the power lie on?

[0]: https://www.cnbc.com/2017/04/07/how-much-the-average-family-...

[1]: http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2014/10/09/for-most-wor...

[2]: https://www.creditdonkey.com/average-american-savings-statis...

Re: It’s time to balance the power between workers and employers

#94

Post by mirimir » Mon, Sep 04, 2017, 6:58 AM UTC

colanderman wrote: post #78

ryandrake wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The article is from a while ago, but I wouldn't be surprised if it were still true: 19% of Americans think they are in the top 1% and 20% more expect to be one day [1]. So a full 39% of Americans either suck at math or actually believe that by rewarding wealthy capitalists they are actually rewarding themselves! 1: http://www.nytimes.com/2003/01/12/opinion/the-triumph-of-hop...

Well, those 20% aren't so deluded. In fact 12% of all Americans do enter the top 1% at least for a year. [1] (Granted it's not clear from the above link whether the poll question was worded to clarify this ambiguity.) [1] https://www.nytimes.com/2014/04/20/opinion/sunday/from-rags-...

You don't "enter the top 1% at least for a year". To be part of the 1%, you at least have enough capital to live off interest indefinitely. Indeed, enough for your children to live off interest indefinitely.

Re: It’s time to balance the power between workers and employers

#95

Post by elmar » Mon, Sep 04, 2017, 7:02 AM UTC

burntrelish1273 wrote: post #28

Richard Wolff has also been evangelizing co-ops and worker-owned businesses for some time. http://www.rdwolff.com/faq_worker_coops_wdes https://youtu.be/urCy3UOGgx8

Anarcho-Syndicalism at Valve (2013)

https://www.inc.com/samuel-wagreich/the-4-billion-company-wi...

http://hbhblog.blogspot.pt/2013/03/valve-steam-anarcho-syndi...

http://www.econtalk.org/archives/2013/02/varoufakis_on_v.htm...

Re: It’s time to balance the power between workers and employers

#96

Post by mirimir » Mon, Sep 04, 2017, 7:02 AM UTC

closeparen wrote: post #90

mirimir wrote: post #34

> The central issue in American politics is the economic security of the middle class and their sense of opportunity for their children. Maybe for Mr. Summers, it is. And maybe as well, for liberals generally. But there are at least a couple problems. First, many Americans are apparently convinced that some other issue is central in American politics. Maybe it's threats from foreigners. Or from Satan, or some proxy o…

You have also left out an interesting third group, who are interested in the welfare of the poor, and believe the middle class have gotten far too much airtime and are basically the same as the super-rich with respect to the poor's concerns. These folks don't come out much on a national level, but are prevalent in urban housing debates, defending the poor and rich alike against the (upper) middle class.

Yes, I did. But they're an even smaller group.

Re: It’s time to balance the power between workers and employers

#97

Post by pdkl95 » Mon, Sep 04, 2017, 7:03 AM UTC

danblick wrote: post #9

Software developers are already highly paid with lots of perks. Do they need unions?

Unions are useful for more than just better pay. If that's a concern, charter some new type of union-like organization that doesn't touch salary/wages.

One of the most important reasons for unions is to fight back against abusive employment practices that are unrelated to employee compensation. While software development doesn't have anywhere close to the problems mining or factory jobs, we it might be a good idea to address the culture of working long hours with chronic sleep problems. A union could also fight unfair hiring practices like age discrimination or the scandal from a couple years about hiring collusion to between several Silicon Valley companies.

Re: It’s time to balance the power between workers and employers

#98

Post by CJefferson » Mon, Sep 04, 2017, 7:05 AM UTC

ThrustVectoring wrote: post #19

ianai wrote: post #13

Countries are best off that empower their people: the individual citizens.

I really don't like the framing of that. Good countries get the hell out of the way while people use their inherent power of self-determination. If someone powerful spends their time "empowering" you, it means you had none in the first place.

Well, there are some countries with no rule of law, and large ungoverned areas. You are welcome to move to one of your like, then you could have all the empowering you want! (To be clear, that's a joke, as I'm not suggesting you go get yourself killed by a warload or pirates somewhere).

Re: It’s time to balance the power between workers and employers

#99

Post by closeparen » Mon, Sep 04, 2017, 7:05 AM UTC

yorwba wrote: post #88

mirimir wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is funny :) Maybe ~20% of Americans are well-enough off that they feel wealthy. But they have no clue what real wealth is. And indeed, in day-to-day life, it's pretty much invisible. Edit: Gotta quote this: > All of this adds up to a terrain incredibly inhospitable to class-based politics. Every few years a group of millionaire Democratic presidential aspirants pretends to be the people's warriors against the ov…

> But they have no clue what real wealth is. I think measuring "real wealth" by some relative metric like "top 1%" is misguided. To me, being wealthy means being able to live a comfortable life without worrying about your next paycheck. I'm from Germany, but studying in China on a scholarship. The 1000 euros per month I get wouldn't put me among the German 1%, but in a country with a lower cost of living, I spend onl…

> To me, being wealthy means being able to live a comfortable life without worrying about your next paycheck

Americans generally use middle-class to refer to this state. Things are good, you have a paycheck or two of slack, you can make a healthy retirement contribution and save a little each month, own (via debt) a decent house and car, go out to eat a few times a month, not pinch pennies at the grocery store, etc. Major changes like moving, getting a new car, putting a kid through college, etc. require some planning, maybe some financing, but are doable.

Real wealth would be owning a grand house and luxury car, not needing to work to sustain the same lifestyle (before retirement age; after retirement age this is baseline for not being poor), ability to self-fund a capital intensive business, casually owning multiple residences, frequent international travel, etc. Luxury cars are toys and putting a kid through college is painless. That kind of stuff.

Re: It’s time to balance the power between workers and employers

#100

Post by mirimir » Mon, Sep 04, 2017, 7:09 AM UTC

yorwba wrote: post #88

mirimir wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is funny :) Maybe ~20% of Americans are well-enough off that they feel wealthy. But they have no clue what real wealth is. And indeed, in day-to-day life, it's pretty much invisible. Edit: Gotta quote this: > All of this adds up to a terrain incredibly inhospitable to class-based politics. Every few years a group of millionaire Democratic presidential aspirants pretends to be the people's warriors against the ov…

> But they have no clue what real wealth is. I think measuring "real wealth" by some relative metric like "top 1%" is misguided. To me, being wealthy means being able to live a comfortable life without worrying about your next paycheck. I'm from Germany, but studying in China on a scholarship. The 1000 euros per month I get wouldn't put me among the German 1%, but in a country with a lower cost of living, I spend onl…

I agree that there's far more to life satisfaction than money. But that's a different conversation. The point here is that people support policies that favor the top 1% because they foolishly believe that they're part of that top 1%. Or because they believe that they will be. Or because they believe that said 1% drives the economy.