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It’s time to balance the power between workers and employers

washingtonpost.com

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Re: It’s time to balance the power between workers and employers

#71

Post by wsc981 »

danblick wrote: post #9

Software developers are already highly paid with lots of perks. Do they need unions?

I think that is a horrible argument. It always bothered me that my employers could ask a lot of money per hour to their clients and I would only receive a very small part, even though I did most of the work.

So in the end I decided to become freelancer. I can ask much higher rates and now I feel I get a fair compensation for my work (perhaps 2x or 3x my previous wage). And apparantly my clients believe so as well.

Re: It’s time to balance the power between workers and employers

#72

Post by icelancer »

mirimir wrote: post #34

> The central issue in American politics is the economic security of the middle class and their sense of opportunity for their children. Maybe for Mr. Summers, it is. And maybe as well, for liberals generally. But there are at least a couple problems. First, many Americans are apparently convinced that some other issue is central in American politics. Maybe it's threats from foreigners. Or from Satan, or some proxy o…

>>But there are at least a couple problems. First, many Americans are apparently convinced that some other issue is central in American politics. Maybe it's threats from foreigners. Or from Satan, or some proxy of his. Or perhaps, it's losing their guns. Or whatever.

This is very much by design. The state and controlling money interests are happy if people are complaining about guns, weed, LGBT rights, neo-Nazi marches, and so forth as long as the complaining does not involve economic insecurity and/or civil liberties.

Re: It’s time to balance the power between workers and employers

#73

Post by icelancer »

wsc981 wrote: post #71
danblick wrote: post #9

Software developers are already highly paid with lots of perks. Do they need unions?

I think that is a horrible argument. It always bothered me that my employers could ask a lot of money per hour to their clients and I would only receive a very small part, even though I did most of the work. So in the end I decided to become freelancer. I can ask much higher rates and now I feel I get a fair compensation for my work (perhaps 2x or 3x my previous wage). And apparantly my clients believe so as well.

>>So in the end I decided to become freelancer. I can ask much higher rates and now I feel I get a fair compensation for my work (perhaps 2x or 3x my previous wage). And apparantly my clients believe so as well.

That's fine. I'm an entrepreneur as well and I make my own rules.

But there are a lot of people who just want to cash a check and do the work put in front of them. I employ a lot of them. And they're great. They have no aspirations to strike out, to deal with healthcare as a freelancer (have you tried being a father of two with kids or a spouse with chronic medical issues?), to deal with financial windfalls and insecurities, and so forth.

Re: It’s time to balance the power between workers and employers

#74

Post by icelancer »

sillysaurus3 wrote: post #14
danblick wrote: post #9

Software developers are already highly paid with lots of perks. Do they need unions?

I think the argument goes: We make table scraps compared to the amount that a corporation rakes in. Yet we're the sole reason they're able to rake in that amount of money. Not that I agree with it, but that's an argument.

>>I think the argument goes: We make table scraps compared to the amount that a corporation rakes in. Yet we're the sole reason they're able to rake in that amount of money.

I know you don't agree with it, so I'm not ascribing this to you, but of the set of people who believe that, then why are so many startups failing left and right and laying off workers because their products don't hit critical mass? Millions of dollars paid out to the workers who churned out a failed product. Their downside is being out of a job. The entrepreneur's downside can be and often is much larger.

Re: It’s time to balance the power between workers and employers

#75

Post by tray5 »

burntrelish1273 wrote: post #28

Richard Wolff has also been evangelizing co-ops and worker-owned businesses for some time. http://www.rdwolff.com/faq_worker_coops_wdes https://youtu.be/urCy3UOGgx8

Should link the whole Democracy at Work channel: https://www.youtube.com/user/democracyatwrk I think it offers a refreshing viewpoint that many people on HN should consider

Re: It’s time to balance the power between workers and employers

#76

Post by hectormalot »

pfisch wrote: post #60
ergothus wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> why would anyone ever offer a student loan under these conditions? Are you saying that it's not possible to offer profitable rates on student loans that could be forgiven in bankruptcy like other debts are? If so, how is that not saying the same thing as "to fund the education of the successful requires perpetual funding from the unsuccessful"?

I'm saying why would you extend a massive loan to someone who is broke, has no credit, and can immediately discharge the debt. They could and many of them would immediately discharge the entire balance of the loan upon graduation by declaring bankruptcy. They don't offer 40k+ loans to people with no credit at any rate.

There are different ways to do that by redefining the way bankruptcy works. E.g. Personal bankruptcy could result in 2-3 years of handing over most of your income to the state (which distributes across the original loan providers), expect any major assets to be liquidated (e.g. Your house), before you're considered debt free.

Re: It’s time to balance the power between workers and employers

#77

Post by gaius »

danblick wrote: post #9

Software developers are already highly paid with lots of perks. Do they need unions?

Software developers are already highly paid with lots of perks

In a few hotspots yes. But the vast majority of programmers are just office workers like any other. But unlike HR and so on, they face the threat of offshoring...

It's like saying all musicians are highly paid and have loads of perks because look at Jay-Z.

Re: It’s time to balance the power between workers and employers

#78

Post by colanderman »

ryandrake wrote: post #40
mirimir wrote: post #34

> The central issue in American politics is the economic security of the middle class and their sense of opportunity for their children. Maybe for Mr. Summers, it is. And maybe as well, for liberals generally. But there are at least a couple problems. First, many Americans are apparently convinced that some other issue is central in American politics. Maybe it's threats from foreigners. Or from Satan, or some proxy o…

The article is from a while ago, but I wouldn't be surprised if it were still true: 19% of Americans think they are in the top 1% and 20% more expect to be one day [1]. So a full 39% of Americans either suck at math or actually believe that by rewarding wealthy capitalists they are actually rewarding themselves! 1: http://www.nytimes.com/2003/01/12/opinion/the-triumph-of-hop...

Well, those 20% aren't so deluded. In fact 12% of all Americans do enter the top 1% at least for a year. [1] (Granted it's not clear from the above link whether the poll question was worded to clarify this ambiguity.)

[1] https://www.nytimes.com/2014/04/20/opinion/sunday/from-rags-...

Re: It’s time to balance the power between workers and employers

#79

Post by gaius »

BurningFrog wrote: post #23
ianai wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think we're fully in the "see what little you can pay someone to get them to do a job" optimization mode. The marginal cost=marginal benefit argument doesn't seem to apply anywhere. On the contrary, if you're actively making something (burgers, computers) then you're usually not paid enough to actually consume those things on a regular schedule. I think that's a symptom of an emergent caste system.

So each Boeing worker should be able to buy their own 787 Dreamliner in any fair society?

Workers should certainly be able to afford to fly for leisure, yes. Many can now, whereas not that long ago only the "jet set" could afford to.

Re: It’s time to balance the power between workers and employers

#80

Post by intended »

icelancer wrote: post #72
mirimir wrote: post #34

> The central issue in American politics is the economic security of the middle class and their sense of opportunity for their children. Maybe for Mr. Summers, it is. And maybe as well, for liberals generally. But there are at least a couple problems. First, many Americans are apparently convinced that some other issue is central in American politics. Maybe it's threats from foreigners. Or from Satan, or some proxy o…

>>But there are at least a couple problems. First, many Americans are apparently convinced that some other issue is central in American politics. Maybe it's threats from foreigners. Or from Satan, or some proxy of his. Or perhaps, it's losing their guns. Or whatever. This is very much by design. The state and controlling money interests are happy if people are complaining about guns, weed, LGBT rights, neo-Nazi march…

The conversation in threads never goes beyond this point.

Yes, this is by design - and crickets (usually).

Even if it were by design, how can it be countered or worked around.

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