The Netherlands has become an agricultural giant • Hacker News Board

Re: The Netherlands has become an agricultural giant

#121

Post by spiderfarmer » Sun, Sep 03, 2017, 7:26 PM UTC

davedx wrote: post #118

spiderfarmer wrote: post #39

I am from the Netherlands and I have to say that regretably a large part of our country thinks that our farmers are incompetent, stupid, nature-hating animal bashers because of how the media treats them. It's gross how strong the lobby is against our farmers, even though they're clearly among the most competent, intelligent, sustainable farmers around the world. They always use cherry-picked facts (and even blatant l…

I don't know about that? "Boer zoekt vrouw" is incredibly popular. One of my listening exams for NT2 was a farmer giving an interview about his life which was very interesting. I have relatives here who grew up working in the greenhouses. I admittedly don't read much mainstream Dutch news, but I don't get this impression. The one thing that jumps out if I think about Dutch farming and the news lately is the Fipronil…

Well I might be ruined because I manage a large agricultural newsletter (for both farmers and nature lovers) so I see almost everything that's written (and said) about them.

Re: The Netherlands has become an agricultural giant

#122

Post by davedx » Sun, Sep 03, 2017, 7:26 PM UTC

bbvnvlt wrote: post #4

madmax108 wrote: post #3

Coming in from a country (India) which even today has a large agricultural community which still uses ancient tools for farming (tractors are pretty much the most many get up to, with proper cold storage facilities, greenhouses etc practically a pipe dream), looking at countries improve their techniques in such a manner makes me wonder what it will take to move my country to similar scale. Is it simply technical, or…

I only scrolled through TFA (added to read later list). I am Dutch though. A lot of these systems require enormous (and growing) up-front investments, not feasible for small independent operations. There are a lot of family business in Westland, but they require massive mortgages and/or loans to keep up with the times (and the investments that they require). There are fewer and fewer small farms and more and more 'me…

Lots of natural gas and coal to keep those greenhouses warm, indeed! This will probably change though: https://blog.maripositas.org/horticulture/greenhouse-systems...

Re: The Netherlands has become an agricultural giant

#123

Post by selimthegrim » Sun, Sep 03, 2017, 7:27 PM UTC

hwillis wrote: post #117

stingraycharles wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well we "foolishly" decided to build half our country below sea level. We've seen this interest in the past in the afterwake of Katrina, and we've been exporting this knowledge for quite some time. Unfortunately, it's probably a difficult problem to solve on the massive scale the US needs.

> We've seen this interest in the past in the afterwake of Katrina, and we've been exporting this knowledge for quite some time. Unfortunately, it's probably a difficult problem to solve on the massive scale the US needs. Interestingly, this is a nearly 200 year old problem in America. Most spectacularly in Chicago[1], where the city was barely above the natural water table (Lake Michigan). As the city grew they prod…

I presume this is why they reversed the river too?

Re: The Netherlands has become an agricultural giant

#124

Post by davedx » Sun, Sep 03, 2017, 7:31 PM UTC

jacquesm wrote: post #78

farnsworth wrote: post #41

The Netherlands will soon be a massive exporter of flood-control knowledge and technology as well. It's like they've been practicing for global warming for the entire lifetime of their country.

NL is not a country it is a machine that exists by the grace of the countless engineers and construction workers that keep on adding to our water management systems. But we're not just facing danger from the sea side, the rivers are quite capable of flooding the country as well.

That's why we need 'ruimte voor de rivier'!

The video on this page is pretty neat: https://www.rijkswaterstaat.nl/water/waterbeheer/bescherming...

Re: The Netherlands has become an agricultural giant

#125

Post by kuschku » Sun, Sep 03, 2017, 7:32 PM UTC

spiderfarmer wrote: post #108

raugustinus wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Calling modern farmers most competent , intelligent, sustainable is an interesting point of view. Agreed it's very hard to blame the farmers because few would survive not scaling out in the current system. Farming tech is far from sustainable. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Topsoil#Erosion And vertical farming, hydroponics is cool tech and RGB LED's are cool to increase size, weight etc for increased profits. None of…

You are misquoting me. On purpose? Compare our farmers to the rest of the world. Study it. Please tell me in detail how they are not among the most intelligent, competent and sustainable.

Having the lowest standards on raising chickens in western Europe? Check.

Far longer allowed caged chicken raising than even Germany? Check.

No control at all over the raising process, leading to over a year of time before the fibronil scandal became public? Check.

They’re good farmers, but they’re not any better than the industry in other parts of western Europe.

Re: The Netherlands has become an agricultural giant

#126

Post by adrianN » Sun, Sep 03, 2017, 7:33 PM UTC

cool_username wrote: post #114

adrianN wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Citation needed. Having a dozen chicken in a large yard seems to me to be pretty nice for the chicken.

Out of curiosity, do you genuinely believe there is a citation out there relating to the treatment of chickens on this farm today vs. treatment of chickens on 10000 small household farms 100 years ago? It comes across as though you are demanding impossible standards of evidence here in order to cut off a side of an argument you don't agree with, and don't want to begin to consider? "Citation needed" is not a universa…

I wouldn't be surprised if there was a paper that compares traditional methods of raising chicken to modern ones. But for the purposes of Internet discussion I would be satisfied with a convincing anecdote.

Re: The Netherlands has become an agricultural giant

#127

Post by 5_minutes » Sun, Sep 03, 2017, 7:36 PM UTC

In the whole Dutch food line, shortcuts are being made for saving a cent here and there, at any expense - resulting in inferior products, over the whole line.

Grapes without pits, soft bread that stays good for 2 weeks, chickens that shrink to half after baking, everything is full of sugar, ...

This is what we can appreciate about the South, lots of things are done not so efficiently but quite often with higher quality.

Re: The Netherlands has become an agricultural giant

#128

Post by tigershark » Sun, Sep 03, 2017, 7:36 PM UTC

calpaterson wrote: post #101

user5994461 wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not just the tomatoes. Everything in the UK supermarket is quite bad. It's a cultural thing I suppose.

Where are you shopping? My experience is that UK supermarkets are normally higher quality (esp in fresh and refridgerated goods) than other countries. Often lower priced too. Supermarkets I've seen in other western countries (Italy, France, US, Finland) have invariably been pretty disappointing.

Nope. Vegetables and fruits are tasteless. If you don't find them tasteless then I'm afraid that you never ate proper ones in your life. And I tried pretty much all the uk supermarkets: Waitrose, M&S, Tesco, Morrison, Sainsbury's, Ocado, Amazon, Iceland, Asda and probably something else that I'm forgetting. And let's not start speaking about the tuna. I have to bring it from Italy. I spent up to 9 or 10£ for all kind of tinned tuna, even in glass and in olive oil and it was absolutely inedible. Whenever I let anyone living here to try my tuna they are so shocked and amazed that I have to give them some tins to carry home. And the tuna fillets in the glass are even better. And what about porcini mushrooms? The only place where I can find them frozen is an expensive Italian shop. In the supermarket you can find only the tasteless dried ones if you are lucky.

Re: The Netherlands has become an agricultural giant

#129

Post by enraged_camel » Sun, Sep 03, 2017, 7:40 PM UTC

21 wrote: post #81

mverwijs wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From the article: " This high-tech broiler house holds up to 150,000 birds, from hatching to harvesting" No 'decades old photo' either. I find it hard to believe someone loving live animals would put them in such a place.

Funny, looking at the associated picture tells me a different story. Look at how uncrowded the chicks are and how much free space to move they have, and compare with US where they are so packed together that they can't even turn in place. http://www.nationalgeographic.com/content/dam/magazine/right...

It seems strange to point out how well you are treating an animal when you are slaughtering it for consumption in the end. In fact that is the animal's only purpose of existence.

Re: The Netherlands has become an agricultural giant

#130

Post by avar » Sun, Sep 03, 2017, 7:42 PM UTC

madmax108 wrote: post #3

Coming in from a country (India) which even today has a large agricultural community which still uses ancient tools for farming (tractors are pretty much the most many get up to, with proper cold storage facilities, greenhouses etc practically a pipe dream), looking at countries improve their techniques in such a manner makes me wonder what it will take to move my country to similar scale. Is it simply technical, or…

The single biggest contributor is probably GDP per capita. You don't have the same economic pressures for efficiency and infrastructure if you can replace them with cheap labor, and without a high GDP you won't have the money to invest in all this infrastructure.

Both of those are chicken & egg problems to some extent.