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To Understand Rising Inequality, Consider Janitors

nytimes.com

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Re: To Understand Rising Inequality, Consider Janitors

#121

Post by stevenwoo »

FLUX-YOU wrote: post #71
BeetleB wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Apple gets quality janitors and security guards while paying the outsourcing company more. I suspect Apple will then go and find another contracting company.

All of them would have to obey minimum pay regulation. If Apple knowingly hires a company violating that law, then absolutely go after them. If loopholes come from that regulation, then that has to be fixed too.

For someone who works on site at Apple in Cupertino, the minimum wage is not a liveable wage, even with four or eight to an apartment. We could try a per zip code minimum wage, that would even raise teachers' salaries, then we'd need a per zip code tax for public employees. Or some other solution. http://www.mercurynews.com/2017/04/22/in-costly-bay-area-eve...

Re: To Understand Rising Inequality, Consider Janitors

#122

Post by AdrianB1 »

thatfrenchguy wrote: post #88
lotsofpulp wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The reason for inequality is that people are not equal. The work they do produce is not equal in value. More people can do a janitor's job, and/or do without a janitor, so the value of a janitor's work is less. More supply, elastic demand, means lower price point. Through technology, some people are able to produce much more than others, so inequality is inevitable unless there is a balancing force (aka taxation).

Mimnimum wages, mandatory health insurance / vacation, ... All the things every country in the world does except one.

In Soviet Russia you get even more. Not kidding. Do you want to move there?

Re: To Understand Rising Inequality, Consider Janitors

#123

Post by arkitaip »

dexterdog wrote: post #107
kirsebaer wrote: post #16

Gail Evans worked as a janitor at Kodak in the 1980s. "She received more than four weeks of paid vacation per year, reimbursement of some tuition costs to go to college part time, and a bonus payment every March... A manager learned that Ms. Evans was taking computer classes while she was working as a janitor and asked her to teach some other employees how to use spreadsheet software to track inventory... Less than a…

So, IOW they cherry-picked what was likely the most driven of the janitors in the past and compared it to a random one today. That seems honest.

It's not even the point of the example and they address that in the article. They point is that the janitor at Kodak had opportunities to advance her career, whereas the janitor working at Apple has none because she doesn't even for the Apple.

Re: To Understand Rising Inequality, Consider Janitors

#124

Post by vanderZwan »

AdrianB1 wrote: post #117
mathiasben wrote: post #36

The underlying cause of this whole issue is the changes in tax policy instated in the Tax Reform Act of 1986, previously income was taxed at higher rates unless deductions were utilized which forced those earnings back into the economy creating jobs funding research, etc.. As it's become easier to retain more earnings there's little incentive not to optimize an entire corporation solely with the purpose of generating…

It looks like the Soviet Union lost the Cold War on economic grounds, but won it overall by turning Americans to socialism.

Not quite, the US isn't remotely socialist yet, and the thing Lenin did was try to force communism on society instead of wait for it to come "naturally" as a response to capitalism, which is what Marx predicted.

So this warming up to socialist ideas is pretty much in line with Marx' predictions and has little to do with the Soviet Union I think.

Re: To Understand Rising Inequality, Consider Janitors

#125

Post by GuiA »

AdrianB1 wrote: post #117
mathiasben wrote: post #36

The underlying cause of this whole issue is the changes in tax policy instated in the Tax Reform Act of 1986, previously income was taxed at higher rates unless deductions were utilized which forced those earnings back into the economy creating jobs funding research, etc.. As it's become easier to retain more earnings there's little incentive not to optimize an entire corporation solely with the purpose of generating…

It looks like the Soviet Union lost the Cold War on economic grounds, but won it overall by turning Americans to socialism.

? Not sure if you're making a point or trying to be funny, but socialism is far from a Soviet (or even a Cold War) thing. European countries pioneered mandatory paid vacation and paid medical leave over a century ago, a fundamental workers' right which the US still does not give its citizens.

Re: To Understand Rising Inequality, Consider Janitors

#126

Post by vanderZwan »

aswanson wrote: post #94
tnzn wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would anyone need more than 400k a year for himself in the first place though ?

To invest in 2 hippies starting a personal computer company in 1976. To invest in 2 guys in starting a search engine in 1996. To invest in a kid in Harvard making a social network in 2004....

Since when do we need investment to come from one person?

Re: To Understand Rising Inequality, Consider Janitors

#127

Post by arkitaip »

adwhit wrote: post #82
mathattack wrote: post #19

And then Kodak died. How many high paid janitors do they have in their upstate NY headquarters now?

Indeed. If only they hadn't given their janitors paid vacation, they'd be in Apple's position right now!

You're quite righty but imagine if they didn't have janitors at all - then they could have been AppleGooglebook!

Re: To Understand Rising Inequality, Consider Janitors

#128

Post by coredog64 »

osteele wrote: post #112
wallawe wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the correct answer, I don't know why you're being downvoted. This would cause people to either (a) leave the country or (b) work until they made their 395k and then stop working for the year. It's actually quite terrifying that people would advocate for taking up to 90% of someone's income. We need to work on solving inequality but this simply isn't the answer. Edit: It's also important to remember that takin…

"It's actually quite terrifying that people would advocate for taking up to 90% of someone's income." Interestingly, the top U.S. tax rate from 1951–1963 was >90%, and it was >50% during the half-century from 1932–1986 – https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Income_tax_in_the_United_State...

And, due to deductions, literally no one paid that rate. Realized tax rate was lower, combined with a bunch of dead weight losses as people optimized for tax avoidance.

Re: To Understand Rising Inequality, Consider Janitors

#129

Post by arkitaip »

mynameishere wrote: post #56
fatjokes wrote: post #17

Devil's advocate: there is an upside here. Come economic downturns, companies can mitigate layoffs by choosing not to renew contracts. It means that those who planned for stability (full time employees) are more likely to get it, e.g., start a family, take out a mortgage, etc. Those expecting turbulence can avoid long-term commitments.

"Devil's advocate" means taking an intentionally contrary view--not literally saying things that the devil himself would say.

We call that a libertarian POV.

Re: To Understand Rising Inequality, Consider Janitors

#130

Post by user5994461 »

Janitors at Kodak in 1987 lived at a great time when there were jobs and the rent wasn't half of your monthly income. They likely bought their home long ago and are retired now, sitting on comfortable assets.

Janitors at Apple in 2017 can barely pay rents and they will never own their home, likely owned by the Kodak janitors from 1987.

Feel free to replace janitors with any other job title.

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