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China sees new world order with oil benchmark backed by gold

asia.nikkei.com

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Re: China sees new world order with oil benchmark backed by gold

#41

Post by tomcam »

yorwba wrote: post #24
tomcam wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What kind of imperialists do what we did for Japan, Europe, Vietnam etc. without, oh, I don't know, getting territory or reimbursements out of the deal? Please, igravious, feel free to conquer me and play those same devious imperial tricks on me!

The US did get a bunch out of those deals: military bases across the globe and the related political influence. For example, several European states house US nuclear weapons. [1] Japan serves as an outpost against China and North Korea. [2] "Currently South Korean forces would fall under United States control should the war resume. This war time control is planned to revert to South Korea in 2020." [3] And Vietnam? T…

Where did I use the term selfless?

Re: China sees new world order with oil benchmark backed by gold

#42

Post by kartickv »

I don't understand why US-embargoed countries can't simply get paid in gold. Transporting a billion dollars worth of gold costs nothing compared to transporting a billion dollars worth of oil. And no third country can intervene in transaction between two governments, which is exactly what the two governments should want.

Re: China sees new world order with oil benchmark backed by gold

#43

Post by nl »

tomcam wrote: post #40
nl wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure about Djibouti. Kuwait paid about $16B after the first Gulf War and continues to pay for US troops based there. It's unclear how much that is, but Japan (for example) pays $2B a year to keep US troops in Japan. That's independent of things like international trade being executed in US dollars, which is why the US can control World trade: at some point everything needs US dollars. That's why US sanctions…

I was asking about taxes. That is what empires require of their subjects.

Taxes come in many forms. And paying taxes is hardly the only distinguishing feature of an empire. For example, many colonies of the British Empire remained part of the Emprie long after they stopped paying taxes (eg, Canada, Australia). In some case I don't believe they ever paid taxes at all. Yet they immediately sent troops in war, and provided favorable trading conditions.

Even outside that, paying for troops to stay was often known as tribute.

Edit: in any case I wouldn't actually argue that the US is an empire in the traditional sense. It has been the the unchallenged hegemon for nearly 30 years and before that the leader of half the world for another 40. I think speaking of the American Empire is a reasonable shorthand, even if it misses many subtleties.

Re: China sees new world order with oil benchmark backed by gold

#44

Post by appleflaxen »

barry-cotter wrote: post #34
mahrain wrote: post #11

Last one to try to circumvent the petrodollar was Ghadaffi. It seems China now takes the opportunity of the current political climate to try it themselves. (Petrodollar principle is explained well by Adam Curtis' documentary "Bitter Lake")

Qaddafi's mistake was in giving up WMDs not trying to price oil in something other than dollars. Saddam is gone, Qaddafi is gone, Kim, Assad and Iran are still there. Never, ever give up WMDs.

that is an amazing point. the lesson to future authoritarians is clear, isn't it.

Re: China sees new world order with oil benchmark backed by gold

#45

Post by tomcam »

nl wrote: post #43
tomcam wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was asking about taxes. That is what empires require of their subjects.

Taxes come in many forms. And paying taxes is hardly the only distinguishing feature of an empire. For example, many colonies of the British Empire remained part of the Emprie long after they stopped paying taxes (eg, Canada, Australia). In some case I don't believe they ever paid taxes at all. Yet they immediately sent troops in war, and provided favorable trading conditions. Even outside that, paying for troops to…

Taxes do not come in many forms. They are involuntary payments made with jail as the punishment for noncompliance.

Re: China sees new world order with oil benchmark backed by gold

#47

Post by nradov »

kartickv wrote: post #42

I don't understand why US-embargoed countries can't simply get paid in gold. Transporting a billion dollars worth of gold costs nothing compared to transporting a billion dollars worth of oil. And no third country can intervene in transaction between two governments, which is exactly what the two governments should want.

The embargoed countries are mostly poor and don't have much gold reserves. And the US might be able to seize or destroy gold shipments in transit. Moving physical gold is far more risky than a wire transfer.

Re: China sees new world order with oil benchmark backed by gold

#48

Post by nradov »

This is a non-story. There won't be any physical gold actually backing the Yuan or any fixed gold exchange rate. The same limitation applies to the oil contacts. The only change they're making is to allow gold trading denominated in Yuan in a couple of Chinese exchanges. You can already freely trade gold in every other major fiat currency so nothing new here. And if you buy a large quantity of gold with Yuan, good luck on taking delivery of physical metal and getting it out of the country.

Re: China sees new world order with oil benchmark backed by gold

#49

Post by Consultant32452 »

tomcam wrote: post #39
whytaka wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The petrodollar is how the US collects their tributes.

A voluntary exchange of goods or services for money is not a tax or tribute.

When we invade countries and depose leaders who threaten to trade oil on something other than the dollar, it's not exactly voluntary.

Re: China sees new world order with oil benchmark backed by gold

#50

Post by igravious »

tomcam wrote: post #39
whytaka wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The petrodollar is how the US collects their tributes.

A voluntary exchange of goods or services for money is not a tax or tribute.

I already explained _hours_ ago that I was using the term American Empire semi-rhetorically. It does not matter if you show that the way the US has employed and distributed its power historically do not meet your strict definition of how an empire operates because I'm not cutting my cloth to suit the tailoring of your definition. By many accounts the neo-colonial way in which the US has conducted and continues to conduct itself is imperial.

It's kind of like duck-typing I figure. If it looks like an empire and behaves like an empire it's probably an empire.

The four behavioral characteristics that clinch it for me are: [1] the continued unilateral interference in the sovereignty of other nations either covertly or overtly; [2] the non-participation in international norms; [3] the continued garrisoning of territories in other nations; [4] the historic and current role of the dollar and the US-backed financial systems and institutions globally.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_involvement_in_r...

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_treaties_unsigned_or_u...

[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_military...

[4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reserve_currency#United_States...

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